Mike Vince — The Voice of Watford

Hello and welcome to Oh My Word, the podcast about Watford in the '90s with Matt and Michael. Hi Matt, how you doing? I'm good, thank you. How you doing? I'm good, thank you. Today we're doing this, taking a slightly different approach. No, we're not doing a season today.

We're very grateful to be joined by Mike Vince, the commentator who will be familiar to many of the listeners of this podcast. I think, you know, the voice of Watford in the '90s and earlier than that. Someone who me and Matt have been particularly fond of and looking forward to speaking to Mike about his experiences with the club during this period and his memories and stories. So Mike, how are you doing?

I'm doing well, mate, thank you very much indeed. And I've got the double M's either side, we've got 3 M's, haven't we?

Yeah, we have, we have. We'll try to navigate that. Well, thank you very much for coming to speak to us tonight, because as I said, I suppose just a sort of brief preamble, me and Matt both, you know, this podcast has started because we really got into Watford in the '90s. We were sort of aware of what they were doing in the '80s loosely, but we were a bit young to really fully appreciate that, and actually, you know, really became supporters in our own right in the '90s. But the '90s, not quite as glamorous for Watford or as successful as they had been in the '80s, so quite a different time. But am I right in thinking your time with the club started earlier than that? Do you want to tell us a bit about sort of how you became to be involved with Watford, what your role was covering them?

Well, the first thing to say is loud and proud, I'm Watford born and bred. Even though I've not been near Vicarage Road for 5 years because it isn't the club it used to be. When I left school at the age of 18 I invested in a season ticket. I've been a sort of— how can I put it— sort of on and off supporter because, you know, we like it. That sort of age, you've got a lot of other things that are dominating your time. Yeah, so I had a season ticket in the front row of the Shrodells Stand, which also produced a certain Professor Stuart Timperley. Who graduated to other things, but he went up exalted.

But I always joke, I always used to joke, I went higher than him because I ended up in the TV gantry above the director's box. And I had no real ambitions at all in anything about the media. I got a job in London. I used to meet the lads for a drink on Saturday lunchtime when Watford were at home, and then you would go and have an hour to sort of clear your throat and all that. And then go and sing your heart out for the lads. But I was a sitter rather than a stander, if you know what I'm saying. Yeah, and it already came from there.

Watford was always my club. I was, you know, devoted to it.

So in terms of your career with the media and as a football commentator in particular, how did, how did that come about? And was it specifically sort of local that you started with?

And like, you know, oh, very much so. Very much so. In fact, the second game I ever did as a commentator was for hospital radio. And it was Watford 7, Southampton 1. Wow. I used to enjoy watching a lot of— and I had a little bit of passing interest in the media. And then the word got out on the street and also got into the match programme that Watford were looking for somebody to join their hospital broadcasting team.

And a mate of mine showed it to me one Saturday lunchtime, and I sort of told him, have another drink and not be so silly. Following week, I got a phone call about my application, and I was invited to go and meet the team there, who have always done— although I know they're not doing it anymore, which I think is a tragedy— done a fantastic job. I was born in the hospital, actually, right behind the Shrodells Stand, and I started to do a couple of games to help out because they were short. And I was doing sort of 5-10 minutes to get my— and I'd never done any broadcasting of any description before. And then of course you get to this Southampton Tuesday night and 2 or 3 of the regulars are thinking, oh, it's 4-nil, and then, you know, we're not going to come. So I ended up in half the game, and of course the rest, as they say, is history. And I was very lucky that things moved on from there.

I was doing hospital radio and decided to travel to a few away games. As much for, you know, something to do on a Saturday, and a few of my friends went. Then Chiltern Radio arrived on the scene through the good offices of many people, including Oli Phillips of the Watford Wise and a few others. My name got in the frame initially as simply the Watford match reporter who would cover the games home and away, which meant working Saturdays and as many of the evening games as I could. And very much had a job to do. And now you're talking early '80s. I then got offered a full-time job at Chiltern, but I was doing everything.

It wasn't just doing football. It's a wonderful grounding local radio. It teaches you so much. I was doing everything from reading the breakfast traffic news to making the tea. And because of, in my youth, being very much into music, I was also the relief classical music presenter. When the guy took a month off, I would do it. You did absolutely everything, and it taught you an awful lot.

It's the most vital part of it. And obviously, you know, my relationship with the club was established, but. It's certainly something you know, you must never take it for granted. You have to make sure that you behave yourself professionally and properly. That you're the local boy and all that has nothing to do with it. I look back on some really wonderful years.

So what sort of year are we talking about there, Mike?

Chiltern Radio started in 1981, so I'd been doing a couple of years in hospital radio before then. But of course it meant I did the famous semi-final commentary in 1984. With for Chiltern Radio, but also it was being listened to by a certain gentleman who was lying on a bed in a hotel suite in the south of France because he was going on stage that night. We all know who we're talking about here. No, we're talking about amazing. Wow. It had also been the season, of course, where I travelled around Europe with Watford.

So really, from about 1981, I suppose it became more— but my deal with Chiltern was that Watford would be my first. They would never ask me to stay in the studio and read the news on a day when Watford are playing or anything like that. I would always be— right, yeah Watford would have the number one claim on my time, and they'd fill my hours up with other things around it. And obviously I was then the Cup Final commentator. In 1984, which is something to look back on and think you were the first, yeah, local radio commentator for Watford in a cup final. And I then went national from there.

Yeah, you must be very proud of that.

Must have been a bit of a I say this thinking back to when I was a school kid, but dream job for me was like a teenager would have been commentating on Watford, just because you just get— because the reasons that you described, you get to travel the travel the country, go home and away.

But it is, but also the most important thing was that I hit the jackpot, and I'll be the first to admit it. And if you're trying to learn the game, you've got the likes of Oli Phillips, who journalists to his fingertips, and one of the most respected. But at the same time, you had a manager and players who, if you treated them as professionals, they treat you as professional. And they were the most brilliant bunch of people to work for, and I'm still friends with many of them after, you know, 30-odd years. It did help by the fact that I suppose as these things developed, we got, we got to know each other quite well because I was the go-to man every Christmas when Anne Swanson needed an MC for the legendary Watford Family Enclosure Christmas parties, where you'd end up, you know, this young lad at the age of 9 could go home and say, 'Mummy, mummy, I've been involved in a three-legged race with Luther Blissett.' and things like that. But they were so essential to the relationship between everybody and the one team, one club that Graham Taylor's gospel was. And, you know, it was that taught me about the fact that, you know, that Graham was the manager of Watford Football Club.

Many of his successors have been a manager of Watford football team, and there has been an enormous difference.

I think we've, we've tried to talk about the sort of what the DNA of Watford a little bit over the seasons we've been through, and what it meant to support Watford, and particularly during the period that we got into them, and I suppose the shadow of the '80s in the club that Graham built looming over that, but. I will come— maybe we'll come back to Graham Taylor and his return to Watford. But before we get to that, it'd be great to hear a bit more about your sort of your reflections on what happened, I suppose, in the years that followed going into the '90s in that period of decline. What did you notice about the club under different ownership and different management? Because to us it felt like it was a much smaller— it was certainly like, I mean, a lot of people just stayed away, didn't they, during that period? And it was a much more challenging time for the club. It was great to get your reflection on that.

You're right. I think if you look through the years, even subsequently, if I just compare Watford with other clubs, you know, the hardest job in the world is to go in and replace a hugely successful, long-established manager. Bassett's only failure was at Watford. Emery had the task of trying to succeed Wenger. Look what happened to David Moyes at Manchester. And it's the effect a departing manager who is such an icon has not only on the players but on the supporters and on the whole ethos of the place. And that sort of started back in '87, obviously, but it was sort of going through for about 3 or 4 years.

Because the other thing I know— this is particularly topical at the moment— is clearly Watford had been for years one of the leading clubs promoting their youth. Didn't matter how young you were, if you were good enough, you were in the team. And of course, they— success follows success. Other managers didn't really appreciate and didn't necessarily have the resources. And of course, the resources took the mother and father of a collapse in the Vialli fiasco to actually do what they wanted to do and invest in the youth system. I would challenge anybody to say that the— if you go back and start in the 1980s and go through to today, name me 11 players who were born, who started in the Watford youth team, they'd be a match for anybody.

Yeah, well, they won the Youth Cup, didn't they, as well, twice at that point, which— yeah, which is remarkable for a club of Watford.

It was nice to see Mark Hughes got into the habit of losing at Vicarage Road early in his career.

Obviously we had the start of the '90s. Colin Lee had a very difficult time, and then Steve Perryman came in for several seasons. And from my experience, and I think from Matt's as well— Matt, you can tell me if I'm doing you a disservice here— but I think we felt like Perryman did stabilise things for a few seasons in terms of stopping the rot, because there was a very serious chance of them dropping down through into the third and who knows where from that point. But there wasn't a great connection with— between— it never felt like the fans and the club had a great connection at that time. And Perryman always felt slightly aloof, distant. What do you have any memories? Did you have much dealings with Perryman at the time when you were a journalist?

Yeah, and of course he was a terrific— he had a terrific record. But I'll say one thing, one of the things that saddened me though, all the years I've been there, is if you ask me to name half a dozen people whose influence for the good at Watford has not been recognised. I'll start with Peter Shreeves. Perryman brought him in. Perryman was the man who did all the work with the board and all that. Shreeves, he just coached the players, and it was Shreeves's coaching that made all the difference to actually getting the players to knit together as a unit, albeit in difficult circumstances with the very serious limitations of transfer budget or whatever, to ensure that survival was the name of the game. But the whole ethos of Watford had changed because, you know, you always thought that— it's a bit like saying that in the Graham Taylor years, it was the glass half full became the glass half empty.

It would completely turn on its head, the mentality of everybody, where 15th place would do nicely, thank you.

Popping back to Peter Shreeves, I think that's a really interesting point you make there because before Michael and I go through each season and pick out some of the some of the key aspects of it, because some of the key storylines, we look back over contemporaneous reporting and reflections on seasons and things like that. And there's very little written about Peter Shreeves. He's almost kind of been airbrushed from memory a little bit. It's all very much presented as Perryman. And like you say, he was a very able number two who probably did more than most number twos. Is that fair?

I think it is more than fair. But I would also say this, that there were certain groups of people in this world of football. Who are brilliant number 2s who just haven't quite got it as number 1s for whatever reason. Shreeves was a coach first, second, third, and last, and absolutely brilliant at it. But you need to be more than a coach to be a manager. Shreeves, on the training ground, I could watch him all day. He was an absolutely outstanding coach.

And the fact that he was so close to Steve Perryman would mean that they worked as a double act. And the very fact that Watford didn't collapse into bits in those years, I would say a lot of the credit must go to Peter Shreeves.

That's really interesting because, yeah, he's not someone that we— like Matt said, he's not someone that we've. We've come across, I suppose, in our digging back through the, you know, the memory files to see what we could find out about some of those seasons. I guess we were also thinking about Perryman in terms of his style. And, you know, we're probably— when I'm calling him a bit distant, and Luffas, mainly because that's just how he comes across in the interviews. And he always seems slightly like prickly or a little bit, you know, like frustrated at the fact that there's a lot— you get a sense that he felt like there was a lot of harking back to the good old days and that he used when he was doing his best to try and move forwards in really difficult circumstances and maybe didn't feel as appreciated himself, which I don't know if that's fair or not. It's just the way that things come across. And sometimes when you're reading soundbites, you know, 25, 30 years later, then maybe you read too much into them.

But I think the case is that, you know, he did the job he was brought in to do. Yeah, he stabilised the ship. And I think the problem was the expectancy level had been so high because Graham had made it so high. But because it wasn't only that, I mean, you always wonder what would have happened if Watford got to where they got under Graham and won every game 1-0 and concentrated on defending. But they're going the old gung-ho style, come on, let's take this lot to the cleaners. And that was against the philosophy of a lot of the old style who simply think, yeah, I'll take a 1-0 if we can get a second goal, the bonus. Whereas Graham was always someone who would rather have won 4-3 than 1-0.

But you had to have the players, and of course Perryman was working with two arms and probably one leg tied behind his back, as many of his successors were in that year, in those years.

Well, one of the players that Perryman brought in was to shore up the back, and that was Glenn Roeder, who obviously succeeded him. You interviewed Glenn Roeder several times. Did you think at the time there was a manager in the waiting there?

I knew Glenn, he was a very close friend of mine. And obviously it was desperately sad that he passed away just months ago, and I'm actually working at the moment on a huge charity date because sadly his name is added to the list of those centre halves, as we used to call them in that era, who probably headed leather footballs too often. And Glenn was— he was a leader. Wherever you looked at him, he was a leader. You needed people on the pitch. There was all this debate even when it came to the Ferguson years and the '90s about you know, winning things with kids. You always needed in any team, be it Watford or wherever, you needed to have 2 or 3 of the old 30-something brigade, been there, done that, got a room full of t-shirts, who would offer a hug where necessary but also offer a kick where necessary.

Glenn did that marvelously. I always regarded Glenn as a huge be successful coach but he was also one of the most decent human beings I've ever met. And why his death's a tragedy, and why I say I'm, I'm presenting a big race day at Newmarket to raise money for the work of the Brain Tumor organization, in the hope that Glenn is one of the last that has to pay the price for it. Well, he, I mean, he, when he became manager, of course, had the ultimate impossible task, didn't he of going to, of almost going on a week sort of negotiations to East London. And I always admired the Watford fans because they never once shouted, 'Petchey out, Petchey out,' did they? It was always, 'Hit the road, Jack, and don't you come back no more, no more.' Very subtle.

I think with Glenn as well, when he did pass and that news went around, there was a general— I think the reaction to that from across— it wasn't just Watford fans, was it? He's very sort of highly thought of, I think, in football in general, from the people who've worked with him, saw him as a decent man.

Well, I mean, he had a remarkable ability to assess players. And let's not forget that he went shopping in Baldock one famous evening, didn't he? Yeah, he did. He certainly did. We all know what that produced, and it was him backing his judgment. But it's just a shame that era, the eyes of the board, or at least of most of the board, were not on trying to take the club forward invest to give Glenn a chance. But I still think he did remarkably well to finish what they did in those seasons.

But eventually his luck was going to run out, and it did.

Yes, we— I mean, we touched on this a lot in the last few seasons that we've covered, but the reality was for Glenn Roeder, it seemed that every time he started a season, there were— you'd list the sort of outgoings on two hands, and then you'd list the ingoings on two fingers usually. And the players coming in were usually, you know, a £5,000 reserve keeper and, you know, whoever he could get on loan or something.

Yeah, good goalscorer though. He'd always treasure Bristol Rovers when he hit the mother and father of one. And I used to joke with him that for about 4 years, when Watford had a bad run in the cup, that the last FA Cup goal scored for Watford was by Glenn Roeder, who of course famously settled that 4-match marathon with Newcastle with an own goal. So Roeder's Watford goal stood for about 4 years. The fact he was playing for Newcastle at the time was almost an irrelevance.

How did you, how did you feel when he took over then as Watford manager and, you know, had that very difficult task, as you said. And what was the mood like generally around the club at that time with Roeder coming in?

I think there was a certain element of uncertainty from beyond the level of the dressing room. Glenn did a very good job with what he got. He did a very good job. And let's think of, you know, the likes of Hessenthaler and a few others. But more than that, it was just a case of, was Glenn some weeks picking the team, or was the physio picking the team? Because there weren't enough to go around, and that was the hardest part of all. But again, sadly, you live or die by your results, and I've just think that he didn't get the credit he deserved for keeping things positive for as long as he did.

Yeah, he brought through a lot. He brought through a lot of young players as well, didn't he? I mean, bear in mind, Glenn's closest mate or one of his closest mates throughout his time in Watford, somebody he'd known for years, was Tom Walley. And Tom Walley, of course, was Mr. Watford Youth. Yeah. And, you know, and the two of them often trying to raise money for sick animals. Mind you, they didn't know they were sick when they backed them.

Would would be— would spend an hour together talking about players. You know, we think of the Oldsworthy twins as Tom— Tom's grasp of names was never as strong as they were, the Oldsworthy twins. But the thing is, they were close, and that close relationship meant that Glenn unfailingly and rightly backed Tom's judgment. If Tom's view was this player is fit, is ready to take a step up. That would do for Glenn. And the youngsters that came through all wore that shirt with pride, every single one of them.

Yeah, we had— I mean, I'm just thinking, you know, Drysdale, Lavin, Bruce Dyer, Richard Johnson, lots of young players David Connolly. Like, lots of, lots of young players came through during Glen Rose. Look at it, John.

I mean, John is just legendary. Yeah. And that goal would be Graham Taylor's Wolves is one that sticks in the memory for a long time. I described it, I said, guess who's calling that? I think I called it at the time, I said, guess who's calling the golden shot? Take aim, fire. And of course, in Lavin and Drysdale, you had two exceptional defenders.

So, you know, Lavin playing out down on the right, look, he was an international, international defender playing for Watford. Count those on the fingers of one hand. And and Jason Drysdale, who was a proud and long proud Bristolian. But they came through the ranks, as you rightly say, there were so many of them. But they got given their chance, and because Glenn was prepared to ensure it.

Interesting that neither of those two went on to have stellar careers, even though they both left Watford for reasonable sums. So do you think maybe that they benefited from the trust placed in them by the Watford hierarchy? They recognised that they were good young players, and they probably just kind of were buoyed by that confidence, perhaps, while they were—.

I didn't really follow Jason Drysdale that much, but what I did do is see that Lavin, poor lad, had— he had quite a few injuries. But he too is another one with a mother and father of a right foot. You wouldn't be on the wrong end of that if you were his mother-in-law, would you? I mean, he could really hit, as could Johnson. Yeah, there must be some truth in what you say, but I think Lavin sadly didn't get much luck on the injury front, if my memory serves.

So we've gone through Perryman, then to Roeder, who again, you know, very challenging circumstances. We've talked briefly, mentioned briefly the ownership of Jack Petchey.

Let's mention the road he is— we must mention, of course, arguably the best piece of business any Watford manager did in that entire— and that is the Kevin Phillips.

I think it was £10,000, wasn't it, that we signed him from? Yeah, from Baldock, which I think was a few instalments in there.

But, you know, he turned out to be one of the great signings of the last 20 years at Watford. Absolutely.

Yeah.

And anything we've had— how much did we pay for the past year? Fusiliers, that back four of the Vialli era. Blondeau. I don't want to think, to be honest. What was his name, the other fella?

Ramón Vega.

Vega, the Barça fusilier. And Kevin Phillips. It was Kevin Phillips with about 6 noughts on the end, wasn't it? Yeah, I know. Well, there's been a few even very recently that— yeah, I still want to know. I never met Sietes before anybody asked me.

I don't know if anybody did. I don't know if he ever existed. Roeder did some good business. He ultimately wasn't able to sustain it. Into that final season, lots of injuries. We covered that when we talked about that season. He got a really horrific injury crisis loss of confidence, loss of form, and ultimately paid the price for that.

And his time came to an end as the club were hurtling towards the third division. We then had, you know, the fairy tale return of the Three Musketeers in terms of Graham Taylor, Luther Blissett, and Kenny Jackett coming back. What did that mean? What did that mean to you, Mike, having followed them through the '80s and been close to the club then and had that access to those guys, as you said? And, you know, obviously meant a lot to you then, but what were your feelings when they— it was announced that they were coming back? I know that Graham didn't come back as a manager straight away, but just him returning to the club, his presence coming back to the club, what did that mean to you?

I'd like to tell a story about this. Because obviously I knew days beforehand it was, you know, things were going on. So I always tell the story that we got to the day when they were going to introduce Graham back into the club as general manager, as he then was. And they're going to have a press conference. And the PR man said to me at the time, he said, 'You're doing the first interview.' So I thought to myself, 'Thanks.' I'm not sure quite whether that's a hospital pass or a vote of confidence, because we all wanted to know how Graham was. He'd had obviously the England situation and the Wolves situation. And we know that Logan quite— now he breezed to the press conference, he said, you know, he wanted Blissett there, says, so if the results don't go the way Blissett can go and things like that.

So I get to ask the first question of Graham, and I think he's waiting for me to find out what I'm going to ask him because we have kept in touch while he's been away. And I'm thinking to myself, how am I going to do this and try and just test the mood? So, do you know, my first question was to Graham when he came back 'Welcoming committee pleased to see you, were they?' And his response: 'Yes,' he said, 'and Mr Simmons has learnt a lot of new words while I've been away.' I knew from that one answer we were going to be okay. That's referring back to the famous story of the day Graham came the first time to Watford and was being shown around Vicarage Road by Elton, and they'd seen everything and they were about to go out to lunch with the board up in the— in what is now the Hilton, and hopefully over lunch we're going to make him the manager the first time. So he and Elton walked out onto the middle of the pitch and they were spotted doing it by Les Simmons from the groundsman's hut in one corner. And Les wound the window down, got his megaphone and announced, 'Oi, you two, star, get off the star pitch.' Typical colourful Les. But everybody knew what I meant.

Graham started laughing. He said, 'Yeah, Mr. Simmons has learned a lot of new words while I've been away.' and Graham was home, and I think that was the key word. Yeah, Graham's home. And, you know, suddenly the club started to buzz again because of the man, because he understood it wasn't good enough just to work with the team.

Yeah. I mean, just that connection there, just in that one anecdote, is something that you just don't associate with modern managers now, just being that sort of connected to the club that you—.

Well, I remember you said Graham, the sort of thing he got up to, which people sometimes forget in the first time is we played a friendly against the Corinthian Casuals because it was the Corinthian Casuals Centenary. You know how the Corinthian Casuals are, the old sort of prim and proper. And so Graham had all the Watford team playing that night in those long shorts they used to wear back in the '50s and whatever, named himself as a sub. And with the cricketing— and with Watford 1 up 5 minutes from time, on he went. And first act was to give away a penalty, but he stayed down. And physiotherapist Billy Hails needed no second encouragement to go armed with a water bucket and get Graham to his feet by pouring it all over him. Now, how many managers would have allowed that?

But it just Graham, through sheer and brilliant personality as well, had lifted everybody around him, and he started to do the same. The only problem is there was a blip because he was asked to not do— he had a task of Everestian proportions when he first came in. And it took them a season to get themselves sorted.

Yeah, what was your— because this is something that we weren't sure about— when he described himself as general manager, and he's very clear that Luther— well, there's that first spell, you know, when they're basically almost certain to go down, where Luther is the first team coach. And then in that season, in first season in the third tier, Kenny Jackett is the sort of first team coach. And essentially they were the guys that in the dugout calling the shots, and Taylor is general manager. But what's— what is your perception of how involved he was in the first team during that time as general manager? Was he still getting quite hands-on, or was he sort of just biding his time to step back in and take over again, as he ultimately did?

It's very hard to say. I mean, he was obviously very close. He's got two of his own cohorts too who hang on his every word in there. But you see, even when he did take over, we all remember what— how many goals was it they scored? 7 Against Reading and 6 against somebody else, and they still went down. My memory's gone, but they were— they went completely gold last month on 2 Tuesday nights in a row and scored hundreds. But it wasn't enough.

But that was Graham's whole approach to it, was go for it, let's just give it a go. And then of course he moved in because I think the feeling was you know, we now— we can't stay in this league anymore. And there was a very experienced manager. Who the club, everybody at the club adored. Now is perhaps the right time, I guess.

And I guess by that time he may well have fulfilled some of his brief of— in that role you describe as club manager, manager of the club, he could have affected some change by that point behind the scenes.

Yeah, I mean, he was always manager of the club even in the golden years, the years of the early '80s. But I think that, yeah, the thing was that when he came back first, the club was going down. The graph was going down, and it probably took him a year and a bit to stabilise it, so at least the graph was flat.

Yeah.

Then came the time to get the graph up again.

Yeah, it's a kind of a period of consolidation, isn't it?

But you see, it was not in that. It's also Graham was much involved in some of the major sponsorship deals, and clearly I suspect the commercial world were not very happy with what was going on at Watford in that time, chopping and changing, and they weren't actually getting the right sort of headlines for some of the things that were going on off the field. And that can affect the football club where he needs to rely on the local businesses, the local people to get behind it. You don't want your business to be associated with an organisation like a football club that's getting the wrong headlines every week. So it was much— it gave him the opportunity on a match day. Yes, he might have been involved in a match day, but you could be sure he'd be going around the boxes beforehand talking to people and things like that, because that was so important to make sure that Watford had the right commercial partners when the charge came, everybody was behind them.

Yeah, he certainly brought the buzz back. I mean, obviously helps when the team is a winning one. I think that you know, winning the what was it then called, the Second Division although it was the third tier winning that championship on the last day at Fulham. And then the following season, no one expected us to get promoted. I don't think any Watford fans expect us to get promoted. I think we were just glad to be back at the level that we felt like the club should be at, which was, you know, a good First Division club. But the experiences as a fan of how he sort of brought that mentality and that running, that's that running that got us into the playoffs in the last couple of months, and how he sort of—.

Absolutely. But the thing about that also is that was the time when we had a very good crop of youngsters. Yeah, I joked with him the other day about— I said, of all the people, I said, the celebrations in the dressing room at Fulham that day they won promotion as Champions was delayed because one P Robinson was being carried shoulder high around Craven Cottage by about 20,000. I actually said to Graham, I said, it's probably even money he's coming in here and even money he's ending up in the river. I mean, but they, but they were the right sort of kids. They were the kids that lifted everybody and they inspired everybody, you know. And Robbo, a diehard, born and bred in Watford, and people like that.

And they were the kids mixing with the senior pros, you know. Steve Palmer with all the 11 positions, bless him. Robert Page. Well, yeah, I mentioned Robert Page. I joked, I joked with him about it. I said, was that the ultimate moment of pressure for you, that day against Bournemouth? That you had to win the toss.

Because if he hadn't won the toss and Bournemouth had taken the kickoff, who knows what might have happened. But he won the toss, kickoff, ball into touch, out you come, Mr. Palmer. Name me another manager that would have tried that. But that was what made Watford stand out. That is why people supported Watford in the dark days, because they knew they, you know, that they were different. You can go and watch quality football, but you're going to enjoy your day out. But no, and of course, how thrilled are we all.

For what Pagey has done with Wales. Yeah, delighted. We just were talking about him last week, about him— well, he did— I talk about him as one of the kids because he was— he did come through and he was one of the kids. But even when he's first breaking into the team, he doesn't look like a kid. He looks like he's sort of, you know, ready for action. He's like—.

And he said he used to speak with Tom Walley in Welsh, which used to annoy me because it's a way to talk to them. But no, I mean, it's lucky for me because of course doing that sort commentary, which was the world commentary as well, at Wembley. And having done my sums and saying, remember, running, Pagey, that is actually 39 steps to the Royal Box, managed to get John Buchan into the commentary. They were the last really outstanding bunch of kids that came through the ranks. But, you know, they came from Wales, didn't they, Pagey, you and Robbus? But then there was Robbo. I guess I can still visualise Robbo now, what, 20-odd years later, being carried shoulder-high around Craven Cottage.

Wonderful. And it was all done. He was going to end up in the river. Wonderful. As well as Robbo, there were the likes of— well, it was, it was, it was so sad when Danny Webber of course came. Then of course he came back with Jimmy Davis. Remember Danny Webber saying to me when he first came to Watford, he said He was asking me about how we should do things and I said, is it custom at the end of the game for the players to go across and salute the supporters?

Yes, I said. Yeah. Just so I said, just follow Robbo as long as he's still on the pitch by then. But that's it, because we grew up with those lads. I used to grow up with them, you know, used to take time to go and watch them. And then that's what made Watford so special. And indeed, even in the '90s where they could, they did.

They brought a few through. And the Watford supporters were always, even in those years, they were very supportive of any player making his debut, come through the ranks. One of us, and always will be.

We both remember, don't we, Michael? Local lad comes on and he gets the benefit of the doubt if he makes a mistake, and he gets a louder cheer when he does something well.

Yeah, and that would also— it was more exciting. I mean, I still can remember the, you know, watching Gifton Noel-Williams start to find his feet in the first team and grow in confidence and start to bully centre-halves that were 15 years older than him. And how exciting that was to see this guy just really start to impose himself on the opposition. And it gave everyone a lift, and he got, he got people's bums out of seats, and he got everyone excited. And then doing his corner flag routine where he just wasting time at the end of the game where he just put the ball in the corner and no one could— he was so strong that they just couldn't get it off him without fouling him, and then we get a free kick.

And then there was Bruce Dyer, of course, who's now a pastor in Barnsley. But you know, he had two spells at the club, but he was a right crackerjack the first time around. Oh yeah, another one who was really exciting. Just, I think I'm right in saying 6 matches in a row, the left back of the opposition got booked in the first 20 minutes for a foul on Brucey.

Yeah, we had fun talking about him, didn't we? Yeah, the pace and the power and no small amount of skill. He was He was a really great player.

He'd probably—. He'd be the commentator's nightmare because he'd pop up in the 6-yard box. Do you think he's— and where on earth did he come from?

But again, another product of the youth and another player that left a long time before we hoped that he would have done. You know, he's needed to make some money and he was out the door to Palace, wasn't he?

Yes, that was the model at the time, wasn't it? It was— they call it a model. It was the Petchey model. Yeah, any— anything that is worth— is worth anything is going to get sold fairly quickly, unfortunately. But at least we got a standout.

Yeah, Paul Furlong, do you want me to get now down? It's too painful, isn't it?

No, I mean, yeah, the ground was obviously completely transformed during that decade, and obviously those sales did pay for a large chunk of that in terms of building the Rookery stand and the north stand, as it was called then. You know, there was some building work needed at Vicarage Road, so I don't think we would deny that.

But did you get a comfier seat, Mike, in these? This period of renovation, did they give you an extra cushion?

No, but you're under the roof, you see, and you have to be to see what's going on, which is fine, there's no problem with that. But on wet days, the wind used to blow horizontal. And the reason was, of course, the other side of it in those days, although it changed later than that in the '90s, the TV gantry was on top of the stand, which was there where the dugouts were. And as a result of that, there was the chimney on the Shrodells Stand. If you blew that direction, it blew the wind and rain straight into your face. Unforgettable 30 years for me. And I was lucky enough, able in the late years obviously to go and commentate nationally and internationally, working for Eurosport and doing World Cups.

It all started for me at Watford. And you know, Watford was a club so dear to my heart, principally because, yeah, it gave me the chances, but I hope I repaid it.

Well, I think you did, mate. I mean, we've got lots of great memories of hearing your voice and seeing you interview the players on those end-of-season videos. They must have been— were they fun to put together, or was that difficult?

I'm lucky I worked with a super couple of lads, Martin and Kevin Bonner, who were brilliant at it. But some of it was done live. Some of the commentaries of mine were done live and then edited. And I voiced over the rest at the end of the season. On a couple of occasions it did get quite interesting, particularly when there was a lot of people in the press room, in the press gantry. So, you know, we're all— everybody was quite close to me. And that is that for a couple of seasons I worked from that Occupation Road gantry and the television pictures came from the other side.

So the look on one or two visiting presses' faces as the game got underway And I'm saying, so it's Watford from left to right who get us underway. And looked to me and said, have you finally gone cuckoo? And you have to try and remember that, you know, inside out. So it got quite a challenge, but we put it there, and so many people have said so many nice things. And it's wonderful to see, as I have in the last few months, some of the great archive material going back— the 4 goals against Luton. Yeah, probably. I wish I'd negotiated repeat fees.

I'd have been a rich man.

But it was feeds that, you know, the feeds went to other broadcasters as well. It wasn't just So I had to be— you've got to be professional about it, and you've got to remember that there are days when you still got to sound the same, even if you're getting taken apart. You can't say, 'I'm not another,' you know. You still got to say— because it might be, for all you know, you might be the only voice. Yeah, sometimes the visiting clubs, for instance, some lad scored his first goal at the age of 20. He's entitled to think that he was treated with the professional respect by people like me who were in the match.

That's why I'd be absolutely rubbish at it, I think. I'm not sure I could maintain my professionalism long enough to I also know from watching those videos there was a couple where they didn't do this every time, but on some of them they had the commentary from the, like, away match. Like, they'd have the away match commentary sort of still on the, on the clip, and some of them were horrendously biased, like, it's so biassed against against Watford where they just— they didn't even try to disguise their disappointment when Watford scored, which would probably be me if I was commentating. I think— I don't think I'd have done a very good job of it. But the thing I wanted to say, Mike, was that actually, for— because, you know, this is before the internet age, and particularly Watford operating at the level they were not getting a huge amount of media exposure. So you actually wouldn't see a lot of the action until— if you hadn't been to every game, you'd buy these videos at the end of the season, and that would sort of fill in the blanks to the season almost, because you get to see some of the goals that you might not have actually seen until that summer when you got the video.

Well, exactly. And then there were a couple of times, even in the sort of in the '90s, I was— when we had a good day at the office, we had the big screen And there was at least one occasion where we've got to say a 3 o'clock home game on a Saturday and I'd be sent for half past 10. And said, you've got to have to voice these highlights from last Saturday now because we're playing them out at quarter past 2. But obviously, because I was doing— you see, I was also working for radio. So if you're trying to do a television commentary and work for radio in the same 90 minutes, it's quite a challenge. Yeah, for a start, you have to make sure you switch the right microphone on and off. It was a challenge, but I just felt a very lucky boy.

And, you know, some of the friends I made in my, in my years at Watford remain to this day. My closest and most cherished colleagues and friends. Some of them wore shirts, others didn't. The likes of Blissett, Jenkins, I still see a lot of Steve Sherwood. Coton verbally assaulted me at Euston Station the other night. He said, 'What the— are you doing?' He walked up behind me. I recognised the voice a million miles away.

Yeah, but Graham was so supportive, he was fantastic. When I did my first World Cup finals for Eurosport, first live game in the World Cup finals, which for any commentator is a huge day in his career. And I went to— I was in Paris. I did Saudi Arabia against South Africa as my first game. And I came out and I got a text, well done, son, proud of you. Amazing. The mark of the man.

Yeah, absolutely. The absolute mark of the man. But he had that sort of calibre of people around him, wonderful, warm human beings who were— and I think one of the reasons that, you know, one thing I learned very quickly with dealing with people, I still deal with them now when I deal with sports personalities, all right, treat them as human beings first and professional whatever second. They've got emotions, they've got, you know, feelings and all that. And it'd be more than once in those years I'd look to the player after a game and think, yeah, I need to interview you, but I'm going to give you 5 minutes, and they'll thank you for that.

Who is your favourite— who is your favourite Watford player to watch?

Well, I'm lucky that I did the commentary the day John Barnes made his debut, so that's cheating, isn't it? But they were all players. You just can't compare a goalkeeper And Coton was the best I saw in a Watford shirt on a consistent basis with the front player. The front players get all the headlines. Yeah, I'd always wanted to know how many thousand miles in the course of 90 minutes Andy Hessenthaler ran. I thought if Stuart Slater stayed fit, he could have been the darling of the Vicarage Road for years. But I've got to go with Barnesy only because, you know, the magic going to Birmingham and scoring a goal like that.

Was just something that I'll long remember.

What about, still with your professional hat on, what about off the pitch? Who is players or managers who are, who were good value in an interview and gave you something to work with?

Well, Graham was as well. I mean, Graham's father, I remember, was a local journalist who was Mr. Scunthorpe. He was effectively the Oliver Phillips of Scunthorpe. And so he, you know, Graham had learned about the media from a very early age, and some of the stuff he came out with is just wonderful. Some of the players were great. I mean, Jada Merritt was a fantastic interviewee, and he could always get away with a bit of mischief in the right context with most of them. The question is, you learn, get your sandbag first and then see how far you can prod.

But to name one, I felt very lucky that throughout the years there were always people— Mooney was fabulous as well— there were always people that would be natural. Ian Bolton, I could talk to for hours. They were all very good, but you had to learn how to deal with them. Deal with them is get your sandbag, because if you've misjudged their mood and for some reason something's gone on in the dressing room we don't know about, you haven't got a wasted interview.

Yeah, Mooney's— Mooney's— it hasn't surprised me that he's gone on to, you know, to have a career as a kind of pundit and all the rest of it. He kind of— he's, he's perceptive and he speaks well and he's passionate about the game, and that seemed fairly, fairly apparent in 1994 when you were speaking to him, I would imagine.

Yeah, and I think the other thing too is that when he stops saying what he's got to say, he stops. You know, some of these players, their sentences are longer than Judge Jeffreys'. But Mooney was always good fun. If I said you, there's probably 2 or 3 I wouldn't go near in 20 years. It gives you some idea as to how good and receptive they were. And most of them, it was part of the game that they learned as they came to the youth scheme.

But we had some very good ones, and we were very lucky. Very nice tone of voice, I think, to Tommy Mooney as well. Just a nice, a nice tone to listen to. That might just be my personal opinion, but I will, I will move on from that. What about favourite, favourite goal, Mike? We've seen a few crackers. We've sort of certainly run through quite a few so far of our favourites in the '90s, but generally with Watford, what was the favourite goal?

Al Johnson. Anything you want, really. His ability to score goals and also the player who was nothing short of sensational. In the later years after the '90s, but I could watch Heidar Helguson all day long. And his game against— the performance against Liverpool on his debut was probably the finest 90 minutes you will ever see. And he also had a wicked sense of humor, you know. He died for that football club.

He absolutely died for it. He was just, you know, you put your face and your head where angels fear to tread, basically. And he was fun. I said the one thing that disappointed me slightly was that Gudmundsson beat him by 30 seconds to the phone. To phone and give me abuse after Iceland put England out. Helguson got the engaged tone because Gudmundsson got there first.

Johan Gudmundsson, he still had your number. That's that's wonderful.

They were great and they were superb ambassadors for Iceland, a pair of them. That's, that's lovely. You know, we go back to the stage of talking about the youth players coming through. Graham didn't spend a great deal of money at all in the, in those seconds, in the later years. And because, you know, the youth came in and suddenly, you know, in the week of his debut. The Watford supporters thinking, Graham spent a million? Hmm, shock horror.

Was it ever money well spent or what? The goals, the goals that stick in my memory, Mike well, a couple of them from the '90s in particular that are— because there's because you, your commentaries on them when I, when I watch the videos are Stuart Slater's goal against Rotherham where he takes down a long pass first time and then smashes it over the goalkeeper's head.

Yeah, even more so when you bear in mind that he'd been out injured for heaven alone knows how long, and he'd finally got the 90 minutes under his belt and he does that. I pretend— I think he could personally be one of the best Watford signings ever.

He was a superbly talented footballer, wasn't he? I mean, injuries blighted his career. You could argue that he may not have ended up at Watford in the first place if he hadn't have had his injuries. He was a very talented player. And there's a Paul Furlong goal against Birmingham where he scores a sort of chip as part of his hat-trick where he manages from a really difficult angle to somehow dink one over the goalkeeper and score a Magnificent goal. We've waxed lyrical about Furlong a lot on here as well, as well in terms of his ability as a centre forward. Yes, which stand did he pay for?

I think that was the Rookery. I think Paul Furlong paid for when he went to Chelsea. Yeah, we got a decent fee for him, to be fair.

I had a lot of time actually, and another Welshman had a lot of time as a person, for Lee Nogan. Interesting. A lot of time for Lee Nogan.

Yeah, I mean, we were sort of you know, reevaluating Lee Nogan's time at Wolves, because it seemed like he kept coming in the team over, you know, a few different managers and actually did a pretty good job when he was given a chance. But none of the managers ever trusted him really to play him, you know, week in, week out.

But the thing is, if you're going to play— the other thing is, if you got to play someone like Lee. You've got to have— make sure that he's got the right partner. I think he had more partners than the local firm of solicitors.

And ultimately, he, you know, I think looking back on it, I don't begrudge him. It was frustrating for us that when he finally hit some really good form and then he was off. But he had— he'd— I think he'd always done his best, hadn't he, at Watford when he'd been given a chance. And he wanted to go somewhere where they were gonna— yeah.

And then those, you know, and, you know, we haven't mentioned any goals Kevin Phillips scored. Goodness gracious me, you know. And Hessenthaler's couple stick in my mind of Hessenthaler running from the halfway line and threatening to go left, threatening to go right. And I think I've said one, he said that they left the defence and they were stuck in the one-way system. Great player and a great character. And proves how long though we've been— I've been at this game when I actually was watching the FA Cup last year and his son playing for Crawley.

Jake. Yeah, well, there's that— you're speaking to Andy Hessenthaler in the video and he's holding Jake in his arms.

Yeah.

And it's crazy, isn't it, see him now, an experienced pro, but a top bloke, absolute top bloke.

Great mate of Glenn Roeder, great mate. And also Peter Taylor as well, you know, the Dartford people that came from that part of sort of South London and Kent. So Philip— Kevin Phillips's goals, there were some great ones in there.

Yeah, there were. I mean, he was very definitely a great goal scorer, I think, more than a scorer of great goals. But he— there were some beauties in there, weren't there?

Yeah, I think he had a mischief with me when I once described him that when he scored a goal, I said he was loitering with intent. He said, 'Can't I get him to court for that?' I said, 'You probably can.' So, loitering with intent on the 6-yard box.

Can we just ask you, Mike, about some— your sort of commentary style? And when you come, you have certain phrases that we remembered from the commentary and celebrating, particularly with goals. And, you know, did that just sort of happen organically, that there are just sort of certain phrases that— There's two things I'd say.

One is, if you've done a good football commentary, 20% plus of your homework is left unused. You have to remember, the easiest thing in the world is for someone to sit in their front room watching the television and hit the mute button. So that's the first thing— don't cram it full of stats simply because you think, oh, I've got to do that. And the second thing is plan nothing. It's much better when it's spontaneous, whatever it is. Occasionally you had to be aware of things that might happen, like you had a player on 99 goals, and what would you say if he got to 100? You had a few little things, but you know, how can you write a script for most of what goes on in football?

You can't.

Yeah, I mean, that's the colour and the context, isn't it? And everything else is the football happening and you relaying that to the listener.

And also, there are times when you don't need to say anything at all.

Yeah, don't be afraid of the silence.

The silence never cost anybody anything. You had to have a feel for it. You had to sometimes It's like, you know, Wembley and Alan Smart scoring the second goal. And, you know, yes, I knew that his wife had just told him that they were going to be parents, so I had to think to myself, well, if he does score a goal, what am I going to do? But how can you prepare for Nick Wright? You can't. And at the same time, you know, you've got to just concentrate.

One of the first international matches I ever did involved the Romanians in the World Cup. And it was the day that one Romanian had ginger hair, and because the Romanians had got behind with their coach, they all dyed their hair ginger. So I had 11 ginger hairs to contend with. The concept that anything is ever prepared— yeah, the one line I cheated, the one I did have up my sleeve and I was going to use it if I could, it was in the playoff. I've already mentioned the line: I knew there were 39 steps to the Royal Box, I knew about John Buchan. Yeah, and thanks to Robert Page and his mates, I was able to use it. I don't think I'd have used it if it had been Bolton though.

I'll ask you a question I think I know the answer to. Moment of the '90s? I'll tell you the moment of the '90s.

From that day, the moment the full-time whistle blew at Wembley. And the first thing Graham did— I mentioned it in the commentary because I was suspecting it— is he looked up and he waved to his wife. The road to hell was over, and how much it meant to Graham, to Rita, and to his family, who'd been right behind him when some of the nastiest people in the world had been on his back. And that's that same day, is the only time in all the years I ever interviewed him, that Graham asked me to stop an interview halfway through. I didn't need to ask him why, I just looked in his eyes. That was the moment because I saw, I knew, the greatest football manager I would ever work with enjoying his finest hour. And I will never ever be persuaded that Wembley day wasn't his finest hour.

That's as good an answer as we could ever have hoped for, Mike, I think. Thanks again, Mike, that was wonderful hearing your stories. And particularly, you know, I think that's a great place to leave it. Really enjoyed chatting to you. And we, like I said, we've both listened to your voice a lot, so it's— you poor sods. Not at all. You would be surprised what yeah, you know, nostalgia is a very powerful drug, Mike.

We've been really enjoying going back over the memories, and it's actually— there's a lot that we'd forgotten. Our audience who are enjoying it are just like us, and they really have a lot of great memories of this time and love to share their experiences of the club and what the club was like then and how much it meant to them, and I think it really helps. So I'm glad to have been a help. Yeah, it's been great to speak to you, and thank you again for giving up your time to do that. Cheers, Mike. Take care.

On the left foot and in, oh my word!