The Playoff Run1998–99 · Part 2

Hello and welcome to Oh My Word, podcast about Watford in the '90s. This is part 2 of our review of the 1998-99 season. In part 1, we talked about how Graham Taylor's newly promoted team had come up to the First Division and really exceeded expectations, I think, in the first half of that season by being a top 6 side and actually getting some great results and great performances without wholesale changes to the side, which was playing in the second division and won the second division a year earlier. A few new players and notable arrivals, but mostly it was the same squad that had achieved promotion, and they'd really done well in sort of mixing it with the big boys of the first division. But as we went into the new year, things started to tail off, and really February and March were bleak. They were, you know, the wins disappeared, defeats followed, the form really tailed off.

There were some fairly grim nights under the lights at Vicarage Road. And we ended March in 8th, which doesn't sound too bad, but the form was terrible. It was no wins in 5 matches. We're now 7 points and 3 places off the playoffs. That's a massive drop-off from where we were in the first half of the season. We left ourselves a lot of ground to make up. And the form since Boxing Day, just to sort of reiterate that, played 13, won 2, drawn 6, lost 5.

So the last match we talked about was epitomised that sort of poor run of form. It was a dour nil-nil draw at home to Bury. Next up after that, so we're into sort of the tail end of the season now, not long to go, team isn't playing well, and we had a home fixture against Tranmere. And this was actually the lowest crowd of the season at this point, of just over 8,500 turned up for this. It was a fairly grey afternoon at Vicarage Road on a Saturday, nothing much to get us excited about, was there, Matt, going into that game?

No, not at all, no. This was— I needed the way the match progressed as well. I think it felt like a continuation of everything bad that had gone before. I remember Paul Robinson, a loose header in defence, and Davy Kelly runs onto it and scores, and everything just feels bad and familiar. Yeah, everything that had gone wrong in February and March just was coming home again, and we were just seeing it, seeing it all play and play again in front of us. And it was pretty terrible news really, wasn't it? But I think the Tranmere game— I don't think we'll go through every match between now and the end of the season in minute detail, but probably the Tranmere game is one of the few that the story of the match is the story of the match, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, it was one of those games that, it was fading away, wasn't it? And the season was fading away. And as it sparks into life, I've never known a match where you've gone from being sort of complete, sort of almost like apathy, just watching, you know, when David Kelly scores and I was just fed up, weren't we? I think there was just a general malaise around the atmosphere and the crowd and everyone's just, oh, for God's sake, this is awful. 'What has happened to this team? Where's the fight gone?' But they did, they found some fight, didn't they?

It came from somewhere. I don't know where, but it happened.

I'm not really sure where it came from. I mean, essentially, Taylor makes a triple change and Kennedy scores a good goal. There's obviously fire there already because they celebrate it almost like a late winner, don't they? They're really like going for it.

Yeah, I think that's because there'd already been quite a lot of needle with Tranmere, hadn't it? There was— it was a niggly game and there was lots of little fouls going on and stuff. And I think because there was a lot of pent-up frustration, the way Kennedy hits that— I remember the ball sort of skidding across the box and Kennedy rushes on and really lashes it into the bottom corner. And there was just a massive sense of relief that they'd done something. And I remember just really sort of got everyone out of their seats. Everyone was like, all right, something's happening, come on! Yeah, and it— and I think maybe the sort of the stuff that had been going off, which obviously continued as the game went on was a sign of that.

The fact, like you say, the fact that they did celebrate it so vociferously and you know, with such, you know, enthusiasm that they wanted— they did still want something from this match.

Yeah, I suppose if I'm surprised by anything, it would be the crowd's reaction because it did feel like, yes, come on. I mean, in retrospect, we can look back at this, the kind of the match as a whole, as a kind of turning point to, you know, the last third of the season. And maybe the players did have Taylor in their ear, you know, come on, guys, you know, we can turn this around, we can still do something. We spoke at the tail end of the previous episode about how we felt around this time and what our expectations were for the end of the season. I don't think we were alone in our expectations, you know, we were holding out some hope that Taylor could do something, but you know, it might have been that we were equalising to hold on to draw to Tranmere at home, and that wouldn't have been a terrific result at all, would it?

No, not at all. The story doesn't end there, does it? Because in terms of particularly that, what we talked about in terms of the needle and of the general sense of things, you know, boiling over onto the pitch when Richard Johnson is sent off for two yellows, and the second one is just He sort of overruns the ball a little bit, doesn't he, in midfield, and crashes into the Tranmere player. But it's not— he's not gone in like to do him, has he? It's not one of those ones where he's run away from him and he's lunged at him with his studs up. It's just a bit of a coming together of two players.

It was, and you know, I would not be surprised to see any player get booked for that now. No. Going back to 1999, it felt like that was a kind of A 50-50 of sorts. I mean, you're right that he overran it, and it was— he was fierce in his tackle, as he always is, but felt like he'd earned the right to go for it, hadn't he?

So yeah, no, absolutely. So one of my sort of, you know, things I think goes under the radar bit in terms of the influences on this game is John Aldridge on the Tranmere touchline, because he was being just an absolute dickhead on the touchline and trying to shut up— did he? Didn't shut up, Aldo. And just like, you know, brandishing imaginary cards and calling the ref, you know, to try and get players. And that was— I think that's what incensed Taylor. Taylor was then losing his cool a bit as well, and I think was absolutely fed up with Aldridge's behaviour and the general behaviour of the Tranmere bench in that game because they were— he felt like they were trying to get the Watford players sent off.

And I suppose, you know, as a Watford player, you have to rise above that and be professional because that happens in sport, and some coaches are a bit like that. But maybe we actually need to give thanks to Aldridge here because, you know, if it actually seemed to get them— it shook them out of their slumber, didn't it? Because I think from that they were like a team possessed after that. I think the goal, the equaliser got them, you know, got them back in the game, got them going again. But then with Johnson's red card, there was this sort of burning sense of injustice then as well, wasn't it? And they grew, they went down to 10 men, but they continued to grow into this game, and they were absolutely everywhere suddenly, Watford.

Yeah, we win a penalty which Kennedy takes, and it's not the best penalty in the world, but keeper Achterberg, who we'll very shortly speak about again. He saves it and he somehow bounces out to Ngonge, he's kind of more or less on the edge of the box, I think, isn't he? But he slams it into the other corner. And I mean, I remember watching the match and knowing that there was something going on in the 6-yard box, something strange. If you watch the highlights, the camera obviously just peels away to Ngonge, who's peeling away. But what seems to happen is that Smart, Alan Smart, gets in a state with Kelly and with Achterberg. Smart has later talked about how he was standing on the goalkeeper's toes, I think, wasn't he, on corners and stuff like that?

So that was probably, like— Something probably happened, which was the straw that broke the camel's back, but—. Achterberg and Kelly and Smart get in this kind of 2-on-1 sort of melee, and punches are thrown on both sides, but for some reason only Smart gets sent off, you know, presumably on the linesman's advice. I mean, we've scored, we've made it 2-1, so, you know, we've done what we want to do, but going down to 9 men there is not a good look, is it?

I don't remember, like, I mean, I remember Smart getting sent off, but I didn't I think when the goal went in, I just followed the— I followed the ball into there, and then, you know, and then I was watching. The players celebrating. It was only then realised that something was going on in the goal mouth, and but it already happened by that stage. And yeah, and then the ref just came over and sent Smart off.

And I think, I mean, Smart's kind of like put— I can't remember if he's like— I don't recall if he's got like blood on his shirt or if he's just—. I think he had a bloody nose. Bloody nose, that's it. Yeah, he's pointing at something on his body, isn't he? He's pointing at his nose then.

Yeah.

And he's kind of like, well, you know, I didn't do this to myself.

I just remember, I just from that moment on though, it was just the will to win that game from them. Because then by that point I was just like, well, we cannot lose this game from this point. And obviously we still had to play a decent amount of time with 9 men and Chammy throwing bodies forward at that point. But the relief, the relief when it got to full time, and I've just let out a sort of primal scream, I think, at that point. I think I was just probably slightly disturbing for people stood next to me. I don't think you were the only Yeah, they're screaming into the, into the noise, into the wind that we'd won a game. But not just won a game, because, because it was just my loathing for Tranmere at that point was off the scale.

So because just based on this game, whereas it wasn't going into the game, I just didn't really care and I just thought I'm just here because I have to be.

But yeah, it's an obligation.

The end of it was like the biggest, most important victory of my entire life. It felt like that. It felt absolutely enormous winning that game just because. You know, of the circumstances of it. Not because I then thought it would actually mean that much, but it was— it was massive. It was absolutely massive for that point in the season in terms of just turning things around, turning around that woeful run of form and doing what this team could do, which is actually just sort of group together up against it and fight like bastards.

Yeah, absolutely. Literally, in Smart's case.

They did, yeah. I mean, we had a lot of comments about this game, and Pete Hodgins comes up with a couple in particular, kind of thinks about the sliding doors moment. If Václav Boh hadn't hit Smart, what would have happened?

And, you know, we can obviously never answer that, but I think there's a lot of sliding doors moments in that, there's a lot of counterfactuals in terms of, you know, if it was a different side, if Tranmere hadn't been winding us up the way they had for that game.

Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly. But then famously, Graham Taylor didn't fine Smart for being sent off, he said that your punishment is to serve your suspension and then try and get back in the team, which looking back on it makes perfect sense, and what a great way to manage and to motivate a player. In a team which has now got not quite momentum, but an opportunity to do something else.

Yeah, definitely. So we went on from there, we've won that game, we've halted the woeful run of form, we've, you know, battled our way back to win a game with 9 men, and then we've got a really difficult— we follow that up, we're trying to get some form going, we've got to go to St Andrew's to face one of the, you know, promotion contenders, playoff contenders at this stage, I guess, with Birmingham, unlikely to get automatic, but one of the fancied sides.

Yeah, they're sitting pretty, I think, isn't it, in the playoffs, you know? Yeah, they look like, they look like they're comfortably going to make the playoffs. Yeah, we have to go up there and kind of carry on, carry on the form that we've just displayed, or at least the fighting desire, almost literally, that we've just shown.

Yeah, and Taylor picks Tony Daley for this game, and this is a player who's not been— he's not featured much, has he? He's come in at the start of the season, had to earn his contract, played really well in that victory over Sunderland back in January, but he's not been— he's not exactly been a sort of regular first-team starter. But they showed glimpses of, you know, that there's still a player in there. Whether or not he just picked him because he's an ex-Villa man going to St Andrew's, and whether that would take some of the, you know, the fire out of the, you know, the focus on him, and that he would respond to that, who knows. Like, Taylor obviously knew him as a player and knew what. Motivated him. It certainly, certainly did the trick, it's fair to say, because he was in inspired form this game, wasn't he?

It was brilliant from Tony Daley, one of the, you know, brilliant individual performances, I think. But the team were back. And the other thing to note about this lineup as well is we see Tommy Mooney up front because with Alan Smart suspended it's, it's Mooney back up in his, you know, favoured centre forward position, and it's the start of something special for him in the penalty area between now and the end of the season.

It is, and it starts here. And absolutely terrific Tony Daley cross. Yeah, I think he kind of gets the ball left side of the penalty area, kind of turns around the player and just kind of curls in this pretty deep cross to the back post, which, I mean. I mean, it's a decent header from Mooney, but like, the skill of the goal is in the cross, isn't it? And then remarkably returns the favour in the second half, again down our left. Mooney shows remarkable pace, I think, to kind of burst past the player, knock a cross in, and who's rising on this edge of the 6-yard box but Daley nods it in. And wow, I mean, vindication for Taylor for putting him in there.

I think he's 2 game-changing moments.

Yeah, and you don't expect Tony Daley to be on the end of crosses and they're sort of attacking the 6-yard box, do you? But he really does, very sort of determined to get on the end of that one. And Mooney sitting here returning the favour with the assist. Yeah, no one I think would have expected. A win from that result. It's not one of the ones that you look at the fixtures and would have thought that we would go to St Andrew's and win. But I think as Mooney described it, the gaffer had found his team and we had found a way to win games.

I think the opinion of the players sort of looking retrospectively on this is that Tranmere game had sparked them back into life and inspired the team to take that forwards into the remaining fixtures in terms of how they wanted to play, how they wanted to set up. And they weren't going out to dominate teams, but they were going out there to really make life difficult, to make them uncomfortable, I suppose, to get in their faces a bit, be aggressive, which is what the best Graham Taylor teams do.

It's very much— it's sort of in your face, isn't it?

Yeah, it's in your face, it's in your face. And they had the players to play that way. And, you know, with Mooney, it's another of the, you know, the counterfactuals, isn't it? With Smart being sent off gives Mooney the opportunity to get back up front. Get up against those centre halves and get stuck in, and he absolutely loved it in that Birmingham game. And it would continue, wouldn't it, in the next game at home to Bolton?

Yeah, we played Bolton at home, and he does miss an early penalty though. He does.

We do miss a lot of penalties in the '90s. In this decade, exactly. I mean, we should try and tally them up. There's the percentage— Watford's penalty percentage in the '90s in general, like, just as a hunch having gone through this, it sounds like it is bloody awful.

Like, I know, I think I was at '95, '96, which is—. Which was the worst. '94, '95, Where they hit all this. Of course it was. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, that obviously bleeds throughout the decade, doesn't it? I'm not quite sure, not quite sure how any manager never quite managed to I mean, obviously if we just had Gary Porter for 10 years, that would have been fine, but he did miss them himself.

He did miss some. Yeah.

But so Mooney misses a chance to get the first goal, but Micah Hyde gets it instead, and it's a really nice strike from the edge of the box, kind of like. Curls into not quite the top corner, but certainly the upper part of the goal, and he does his rocking the baby celebration, which I quite like, you know, nice little callback. The 'Bebeto.' Yeah, exactly that, yeah, it's a nice little callback there. Mooney does get his goal, and one of the things that we've noticed and spoken about, and certainly Mooney has as well because he was there, he's talked about making these back post runs when Bazeley gets the ball, because Bazeley would get the ball fairly deep, and on his day, on form, he must have been a nightmare to play against because he did have a little bit of trickery and some pace to get by you, but if you stood off him, he could put in a really good deep cross. And some of them might have gone out for throw-ins and goal kicks and all the rest of it, but Mooney would always move to the back post in expectation. And he does that here, he scores a good header from a deep Bazeley cross And we end up winning the match fairly comfortably, we win 2-0, and that's 3 from 3. So we've gone from this terrible run of form, you know, some of January, basically all of February and all of March, and 9 points out of 9 from nowhere kind of really changes, it really gives everybody a decent amount of belief, I think, that this could carry on.

I mean, it might just be a flash in the pan, we don't know at this stage, but everyone's excited about it, I think. The players are showing it, aren't they?

Yeah, no, I think this one— I think the Bolton game in particular, because Bolton were another of the, you know, the sides who were in and around the promotion places, and another one expected to be in the playoffs at the end of the season. So they've just beaten Birmingham and Bolton back to back. So I think, I think that in itself gives them a lot more belief that they're not just beating, you know, runners. They're not being the cannon fodder of the league. They're being good sides. Yeah, I think the Bolton game in particular, they.

That one they did really— they did— I said they didn't dominate at Birmingham, but they actually really did control the game, I felt, at home to Bolton. They didn't really let Bolton get a foothold in that game. They kept a clean sheet against, you know, decent side, you know, missed a penalty as well, scored twice. And yeah, like you say, the sort of the supply line, the sort of Bazeley supply line from the wing, that is— he usually got one or two right. I think you're right, there was— there's, you know, some of them might fly over everyone's head, but he could deliver a good ball, and Mooney, anticipating it, scores a really good header. And it's starting—.

There's something there, there is something there for sure, particularly with it, like, as you've just alluded to there, the two games in a row against Birmingham, Bolton, both of them in the playoff places. Yeah, I mean, two terrific wins, really. I don't think we could say anything other than that.

On to Gresty Road.

Yes.

What can we say? What can you tell us about this one, Matt? Have you ever been to Gresty Road, Michael? I've never been to Gresty Road.

No, that was never one that was chalked off my list as well. But Tommy Mooney's been there. Tommy Mooney's been there and he scores again. Yeah, exactly, he scores again to make it 3-3 and it's the only goal of the match. We win, we win 1-0. So Alan Smart's still serving his suspension, as is Richard Johnson, so Alex Bonnot comes in. And I wasn't at the match, but by all accounts, he was excellent, just as he was in the Tranmere game, calming stuff down.

This is kind of what Bonnot did. He was an experienced head and he could play. He was a very intelligent footballer, I think, so perhaps not the most athletic like a lot of the other Watford players. I mean, your mind immediately goes to the likes of Nicky Wright or Darren Bazeley or Micah Hyde or somebody like that. But he was very clever and he was kind of the person you would have in Championship Manager where it says 'dictates tempo' or something like that, you know, like put his foot on the ball, calm everybody down, speed it up when necessary. So that's a 1-0 win at Crewe. But interestingly, I think the most interesting coming out of this, and it's a retrospective comment from Mooney, but it wasn't just when the crowd thought we were going to do it because, you know, we're easily led.

And of course, we won now 4 on the trot, so, you know, obviously, obviously, obviously it's all made. Yeah, but Mooney is like, this is when the boys were thinking we were going to go up. And some of that might be, you know, wisdom after the after the event or whatever, but like. You did get the sense that the positive energy from the team had already transferred to the crowd and we were spurring them on as well. It's kind of like reciprocal arrangement, I guess, which is what you want, which is the whole point of doing all this stuff. But I think the team really thought that they could turn those 12 points from 12 into something because we're making up, you know, as we said before, we were a good 7 or 8 points behind. It needed to be you know, a 1-point-per-match kind of regain on the teams that are above, and to win 4 in a row, I mean, you know, we're doing slightly better than that already, aren't we?

So everything's looking quite rosy at the middle of April.

I was in I was visiting a friend in Ireland when that game was on, and so I was watching in a pub in Dublin when the video printer was, you know, bringing the results in. And when the Watford result came in, I remember a few, a few of the locals, they heard me cheering and they were asking me if Watford were going up. So then it might have been the Guinness talking, but at that point I was definitely telling everyone in the pub that Watford were going up and to put their money on it. So I couldn't wait. So how much money did you think you made the country of I don't know, I hope so. I hope they had a couple of pints, as it was at that stage before the Euro. I couldn't wait, yeah, when I got back, I couldn't wait to get back to Vicarage Road.

And the next game was a home match against Palace. Palace were not in the mix this season, they weren't, but they weren't. You could never just take it for granted against Palace, could you? And they always, you know, there was a usual Palace— I remember their fans giving it the large and still sort of trying to belittle us a bit. They always like to pretend that they're sort of like Manchester United when they come and play us, Crystal Palace. For some reason they think that they're sort of like a— they're a giant club and we're nothing which is nice for them that's how they see things. Despite the fact that They're not.

But we had the last laugh on this occasion. It was— I think that the memory of this game and the standout performer was the first goalscorer, Micah Hyde, who it's worth saying had been in pretty good form already for the last few games.

But yeah, he was really sort of purring, wasn't he?

He was, yeah. Having— we talked in a previous episode about how some of the fans have been getting on his case a bit in February and March in terms of some of his, you know, seeing his performances and when the results weren't going well and thinking that he wasn't, you know, wasn't on it, wasn't putting a shift in, etc. And, you know, yes, you could say that he— that might have been how it looked with him. I don't think he ever wasn't putting the shift in. I think the team just collectively slumped and it made him look worse as a result of that. But here, there was no question that he was— obviously, players do go through, you know, peaks and low points in terms of their personal form.

He probably wasn't at his best form in the earlier months of the year. He was definitely in form now. He was really at his best where, you know, he pops up around the box, drives forwards, makes things happen, just seems to be on the ball a lot and influencing things, which is what you want from your central midfielders. He also had Johnson back as his partner for this one as well, and he always felt like when they were both on it, and I think Johnson was really up for it as well, you felt like Watford had a pretty good chance. He is fortunate with his goal in this one, in that it's a sort of early cross that takes a deflection and goes in. Questionable whether it should actually be credited to him. It looked— could well be an own goal, but that doesn't really matter.

The point is he made it happen through his, you know, sheer will and determination, and gets a crowd going. It's, you know, a decent crowd. We're up over 15,500 for this one, probably quite a big Palace contingent because they would always bring a decent away size, but. But it was it was, it was another strong performance, wasn't it, Matt?

It was, yeah. Yeah, I think that it's important to highlight the, as we, as we describe them, as I think every Watford fan describes them, the Hyde-Johnson axis. Because Johnson at this stage was, you know, when he wasn't getting sent off against Tranmere, he was, he was winning the ball back well, and he was. Probably at his peak in terms of his long-range passing, but he could also progress the ball to Hyde, who was ever so good at running with and without the ball into dangerous positions for him to then be able to feed our wide players and our strikers. And the combination of those two— I mean, everybody— I mean, we toyed with 5-3-2 obviously at various points over the last couple years, but pretty much every team played 4-4-2. Yeah, but, and to have those two dovetailing in central midfield. I mean, they were as good— like, from this point onwards, they were as good as anyone in the, in the division, and probably better than some in the division above as well, I would, I would suggest.

Yeah, they were, they were in absolutely inspired form. I actually, I can actually remember, I've got a really vivid memory of Johnson in this game, Johnson hitting a like raking cross-field pass from one side of the pitch to the other, because I was, for some reason, I was watching this in the Lower Rous, this match, and it— he hit one from the other the other touchline over to I forget the player who was standing on the touchline nearest to us, but it's one of those ones where you could see the balls just sort of arc beautifully across the pitch and basically land. At this other player's feet about 50 yards away, and the entire Rous Stand applauded. The spontaneous round of applause, it was such a beautifully executed pass.

It takes a lot from the Rous Stand.

It does, exactly, to stop them from grumbling or going to the toilets, to actually get them to applaud, take something. But that was including the upper tier as well. So well done, Mr. Johnson. But Matt, you've got to tell us about the second goal for Watford in this one, the crucial second goal as it was.

Yeah, so no surprises to hear that it was Tommy Mooney that scored it, but I think in a very early episode in our series I spoke about how my favourite bit of Mike Vince commentary was going to come later on, and I'd forgotten which season it was, but it turns out to be this one. And as we've said before, like, you could pick on any commentator And they all have their phrases and the funny things they say in the moment. And we've spoken to Mike Vince, what a brilliant commentator he was for the duration of the 1990s. But here's one that I think he gets a little bit wrong. So Kennedy whips in this cross from our right-hand side, maybe in a corner, I can't remember, no, it was from open play, and Ngonge kind of attacks it, and the ball somehow spins off either the side of his head or his shoulder, goes in completely the wrong direction. Mooney is already rushing in and he can't really do anything but score, but Vince goes, " there's Mooney, and Ngonge was the decoy." And you kind of watch it back and think, "No, I'm not really sure he was a decoy, 'cause he kind of got in the way and didn't really do anything right." It was a bit of a funny one there. Mike Vince would probably have had an insight into some of the set piece work, which they were doing a lot at the time.

And there was certainly some set routines, and they tried this before and it came off. You know, they were moving around and getting around behind the back of each other and throwing off central defenders, but yeah. Ngonge jumping up and head like a sixpence, or body like a sixpence, and they're going in completely the wrong direction, and he just goes into Mooney's head and goes into the goal. But Vince is like, yep, Abe was definitely the decoy there.

It was— who— I mean, technically he was a decoy in that he distracted everyone, and including the goalkeeper.

I don't want to get too football clichés here, but I kind of think decoy. Decoy suggests that you weren't interfering with play in some way.

Decoy suggests that you're taking everyone away by making a clever run or something. Yeah, exactly. Not that the ball's smashing off your side of your head by accident. Yeah, no, that's fair enough. But who cares how it went in? Watford win 2-1. Palace got a late— pulled one back late in the game, but it wasn't enough.

Watford held on and won that game 2-1. It's another win. And as you said, Matt, they just keep eating up the points as they claw their way back towards the top 6. And then they have a chance to make further inroads into the playoff pack. On the 27th of April, they go away to Port Vale, up to Vale Park. This is a midweek game, and this is Mooney on fire, isn't it?

It's Mooney sort of really taking control of this one. He scores twice in this game. I think the second one is one that's a real, like, you can see the sort of determination of him where he gets put through on goal, keeper saves his first attempt, he's alive to it and follows up and manages to force home the rebound. And yeah, again, just a sign of things just happening for this team and happening for that player as well, where he was just— he had that confidence, he was just going to score and didn't give things up and kept going. But one of the things that should get mentioned in this game is Paul Robinson in what was obviously fairly typical Paul Robinson style, went flying in on Stewart Talbot and actually gave him a very nasty injury. And he was only booked for it. I think the Port Vale bench were obviously incensed.

I can't remember if Taylor substitutes him after this or because. Of that, or if I've just imagined that. But it was bad. I think it was acknowledged, you know, privately, that it was an absolutely horrific tackle from Robinson.

Really bad, wasn't it?

And I think he was like— Watford related to you— he was later taken to court by Stewart Talbot over it, for, you know, potentially for damages, because because it essentially wrecked Stewart Talbot's career because the injury was so bad.

Yeah, I believe Pete mentioned this, didn't he? Yeah, it didn't— he didn't end it. I suppose I suppose it's a bit like Gifton Noel-Williams's injury, didn't it? It didn't end Talbot's career, but like, it didn't bloody help it.

No, definitely not. And there would be those rushes of blood to the head with Robinson, and the results when they happened, that's about as bad— they could be catastrophic, and that was as bad as it could possibly be, I guess. And don't for one second think that he went out to hurt. On him, because I genuinely don't think footballers really want to hurt each other, but they lose control sometimes and people do get hurt, don't they? And that is one example of it.

And this is a team that's fired up, isn't it? Yeah, they've got fire in their belly, and the 50-50s were looking like 75-25s. Yeah, for a lot, for a lot of this. Yeah. And you know, with those odds, you know, someone's going to get hurt at some point. Yeah.

And it's sad that it— yeah, it's genuinely sad that it, that it was talking But we end the month in 6th, so we've actually cracked that top 6 barrier again, having won all of our games in April. We've gone from. That woeful run of form in March and being 7 points off the playoffs, you know, in one of the worst form teams in the division, and we end the month in the playoffs and our destiny is in our own hands with 2 games to go.

Yeah, it's all up to us. We go out to Oakwell and play Barnsley, and interesting match to watch back because I think we probably could and should have won this. Ngonge scores and Mooney gets his— what is his 7th goal in 6 games? Kind of a challenge now from Ngonge on the keeper, which of course would be given in the, in the keeper's favor, but Mooney tucks it home. But. Kind of a bit of a sucker punch with a late goal, which is kind of an extraordinary goal really. I don't remember, remember this one, but this absurd free kick from about 35— I'm gonna say 40 yards, which is never true, but it felt like about 40 yards— and just cannoned back off the crossbar and their player kind of sweeps it in from the edge of the box.

But you know, deep into injury time, and I think, you know, team thought that they'd done that, done the business. But indeed, no, that 2-all draw up at Barnsley means that the business needs to be done at home against Grimsby, which is our last game of the season and is at home. And it kind of, it brings about, you know, what Paul Goldsmith, a listener, describes as a kind of carnival atmosphere. Were you there? Were you witness to the home match against Grimsby. Yeah, me too.

Yeah, the first, the first time I'd been in the new Rookery stand as well, because they took over— they gave the Rookery and the Vicarage Road ends to Watford fans in this game and put the Grimsby fans. In the sort of part of the lower Rous Stand, I think, because Grimsby, they didn't usually bring like, you know, an enormous contingent with them, and there was nothing much in it for them. So they only brought a few hundred, and so they put them in the corner of the lower Rous. And Watford had the Rookery as well as the Vicarage Road end, and because they were anticipating, you know, a big crowd that day as well. So yes, I got there early, got into the— going to the Rookery And I remember it was already quite— there was a big crowd in there before any of the players had even come out onto the pitch to warm up. And it's like this sort of amazing atmosphere where, you know, Alec Chamberlain and Chris Day sort of roared onto the pitch to start their routine because everyone was just so up for it. It was like returning heroes from war.

Yeah, it was just like where everyone was like, just wanted, you know, so excited for it that just the goalkeepers coming up to sort of like punt the ball up in the air and catch it was like, yes, so excited. So you could— that was just an indicator of how, you know, this— the atmosphere had changed. It was charged from 8,000 at Tranmere and everyone just sitting there sort of just waiting for it to end when David Kelly scored and put Tranmere 1-0. Like, we've gone from that to, you know, a month or so later, the goalkeeper's being roared onto the pitch to start their warm-up. And the other thing I remember about the atmosphere is they didn't do the pre-match, normal pre-match music in the sort of build-up. They just started— they just said they want the fans to sort of sing and do the chants, and the fans actually responded, and there was this It was just constant, like there was about 5 minutes of just constant chanting sort of getting louder and louder, which I think for the players must have been amazing to go, you just hear the crowds as they're sort of lining up in the tunnel getting ready to come out.

When you've got a whole stadium doing that, including, you know, the then East Stand, that's echoing through the dressing rooms, I'd imagine, as well. I imagine they would have heard that like while they were getting ready.

It was really, I never really felt, you know, any doubt that the team was going to get— we've got to go out, the team have got to turn up and do this. But it really felt like. You know, they're going to get this over the line.

It did end up being a slightly nervy game, didn't it?

It was nervy because we could have put it to bed before, before we did. We could have done, we could have done. But it was a tremendous goal from Peter Kennedy, you know, classic sort of Kennedy strike with his, with his left foot. I think he hit this one, didn't he? And it curls away with the outside of his boot into the top corner in the Rookery end. Huge relief, I think, when that hits the back of the net from a player who's really rediscovered some form, I think, in the, you know, when Watford needed it most. And yeah, they did have further chances.

I think Nick Wright and a few others had chances to put it to bed. You're always running the risk when you don't, but. It did feel there was a certain— although I suppose it's easy to say with hindsight, but it did feel like as the match wore on and, you know, we got close to that final whistle, there was an inevitability about Watford getting over the line, having done so much work to get themselves into this position. Yeah. Which they did. Were you, were you there for this one as well, Matt?

I was, yeah. Yeah, I was. I don't remember an awful lot about the match actually, but I do remember Richard Johnson having a really good game. Yeah. Which is funny because it was such an important match and obviously the crowd was such a big part of it. And it might just be that the, you know, I was probably like a 5-year-old looking around and looking at the scoreboard and the fans rather than the match or something. But yeah, there aren't particular points of the match that stick in my memory.

I just kind of remember it kind of as a piece. I remember everyone being really up for it. I remember a bit being quite nervy. I remember Chamberlain making a few good saves and we gave away a couple of needless free kicks towards the end. And there was a, you know, we spoke earlier about, in the previous episode about. Again, how we thought the season would progress. I think I'm quite naturally positive between matches, but put me in a match situation and I just crumble to bits.

And I was absolutely sure that we were gonna concede, it was gonna be a draw, and somehow the gods would conspire against us and we wouldn't make it through to the playoffs.

But we did, we did, we did. And they did a— yeah, I remember Graham Taylor coming around with his coaching team He did a sort of a little mini lap around the pitch at the end of that game, which I think was nice because it was a. Regardless of what happened from that point, that's a fantastic achievement for the, for the team to have. Absolutely. First season back, to have gone from where they were to then call themselves back again. I thought it was good that they did do a quick sort of— they didn't overly milk it, but they just wanted to sort of say, you know, thanks to the fans.

Yeah, it's an acknowledgement, isn't it?

It's an acknowledgement. Yeah. And I think everyone responded to that. But obviously it wasn't— that wasn't it. There was, there was more business to attend to this season. 3— Well, 2 more matches, potentially 3 depending on the outcome of those. So we actually finished 5th in the end with that victory over Grimsby and Birmingham finishing 4th.

So that's who we would meet in the playoffs. And Ipswich, who were the other sort of really decent sides in the league, finished 3rd. They were you know, on paper comfortably the best of the, of the rest. But they had a tricky tie against Bolton who'd finished— we'd end up finishing above Bolton, finishing 6th. So it would be Ipswich versus Bolton and Watford against Birmingham. And Watford would be playing their home leg first. Matt, what were your feelings then against Birmingham?

What did you think about that tie?

I know that several of our listeners have commented, Paul Goldsmith one of them, thought that Birmingham were the strongest team left in the mix, but I was kind of, I think it's probably a combination of just being jubilant and excited that we'd made the playoffs. I think we'd either beaten or done well against all of those teams, obviously we'd done very well against Birmingham throughout the season, so that kind of was it.

And indeed Bolton, yeah. I would have taken Birmingham or Bolton over Ipswich. I was not a fan of Ipswich.

I think Ipswich were a good few points ahead, like, you know, 5 points ahead of the next best team. So yeah, I was, you know, it was all about momentum. It kind of didn't, almost didn't really matter who was third and who was sixth or whatever. As is the case with the playoffs, you know I'm sure that there are some creative statistics about how the team that finishes in 6th often wins the playoffs. I'm sure that's not always the case, but the team that goes into it with the momentum and with a win behind their back. You know, often does better than their, their final league position would suggest. So I think that's right.

I was excited and I believed that we would do well, and I knew that we would give Birmingham a really good game. And I was especially sure of that because I knew that I would be working during the home leg.

I was at the home leg. It was another sunny day at Vicarage Road, and as you say, like, the momentum was key, and Watford took that momentum into this, into this first leg. They really went at Birmingham from the off and tried to take control of the tie as quickly as possible. They had some good early chances in this game. I think Nick Wright was really up for this one. I haven't mentioned him as much in the last few games that we've been talking about, but he was, you know, very noticeable in this one of his more sort of action-packed performances. And Ngonge and Mooney leading the line up front and the familiar faces of Paul Furlong leading the line for Birmingham with Dele Adebola.

So, you know, we've got a bit to contend with there at the other end, but we'll forget the initiative. They take the initiative with a really good Michel Ngonge header from a corner. It's a really, really good corner and a really good header actually, really buries it, and Watford are on top early on. They really should have probably built up a bigger cushion during this period of play. They did— they didn't, they didn't take their foot off the gas. For anything, they were trying to get the second goal, which may have, you know, led to another one. But Mooney's particularly unlucky.

He We've talked about him sort of peeling off and anticipating crosses. He does that brilliantly in the second half, makes a brilliant connection with a header, sort of glancing header on the end of a whipped cross, and it just slams back off the foot of the post. It's almost a perfect header because he gets over and heads it down. The keeper's got no chance, but it comes right back off the foot of the post. So it's, it's a nervy 1-0 as the game ticks on, and not helped by Paul Robinson having another of those moments. He's sent off, booked for a second bookable offence, and they are both bookings. There's no— I don't think there's any much debate about that.

They're just indiscipline from Robinson, silly tackles, especially having already been booked. So we had to reshuffle a bit, and, you know, Mooney gets pushed back into midfield Alan Smart's now up front on his own. It's, it's not— it's, it's nervous, it's nervy at the end, and you wanted more than a one-goal cushion, but one goal is, you know, better than nothing. I remember. After the game, I was at Watford Junction and some Birmingham— obviously all the Birmingham fans were there as well because they were going back to New Street from there. And they— one of them was like, oh, you'll need more than one. And I just thought, you know, so will you, to be fair.

Like, you haven't got any. So yeah. But they still seemed very sure of themselves. They're like, oh well, 1-0, but we'll sort them out at St Andrew's, which, you know, that would seem to be— they were quite relaxed about it all still, I think, which, you know, I—.

Yeah, I wasn't relaxed about it. I was nervous. I was hoping that, you know, coming out of Sainsbury's and seeing the result— I wasn't shopping there, I was working there— but coming out there and seeing that we'd— reading the reports, seeing that we'd won 1-0 and, you know, Ceefax telling me that it should have been more, I was nervous because I thought that was our chance to get 2 or to get 3, you know, even if it's 3-1 or 3-2, but you know, to, yeah, to get some goals and kind of gained a bit of a mental upper hand as well. And I kind of felt like we got that early goal and, you know, reading about the game afterwards, obviously I wasn't there, but like there was this sense that they were growing into the match. And I think if I was a Birmingham fan, I probably would have come away from that thinking, yeah, we can do that. Like, you know, we're losing, we're losing the tie, but probably had harder challenges throughout the season.

Yeah.

So yeah, again, this is me kind of thinking thinking the worst in terms of a good situation. But playoffs are different, things go out the window slightly, don't they? So yeah, I was a little bit worried.

I do also remember the really unpleasant thing about this game was watching Paul Furlong playing for Birmingham because he was being a— it was being quite a bastard as well. Like, he was doing all the things that Paul Furlong could do, but the stuff that you liked him doing when he played for Watford, but you really did not appreciate him doing when he was doing it against you. Like, just sort of you know, backing into the centre backs and sometimes looked like he was trying to win fouls, like, you know, using the dark arts a little bit, or, you know, trying to buy things off the ref and stuff. And just. Making a real nuisance of himself. And I just thought, I don't like this, Paul, this is not how I remember you. And thankfully, it didn't come to anything, but it did make me worry, absolutely.

I was not going into— I was not looking at the second leg full of confidence. I think everyone knew it was going to be bloody hard to get through that second leg and come out on top. But yeah, you can, you can. Tell us a bit more about that.

Yeah, well, you know, it wasn't made any easier with the trip to Birmingham because there was manic on the motorway, mayhem on the motorway, but not just for fans, for the team as well. So the team didn't get there until less than an hour before kickoff, and I remember them, you know, we'd done the same as well, and it was very difficult. But I remember the players running out and they're kind of having this very hurried warm-up on the pitch, and it was like an absolute cauldron in there. It was, you know, we were loud, they were extremely loud. I don't think I'm giving up any of my Watford supporters' points saying that, you know, that was an intimidating atmosphere for players and fans, particularly me, still being a teenager at the time. Just an incredible buzz about it. It felt like, you know, it felt like you were going to like a derby match in Turkey or something like that.

Yeah, just waiting for the sheep's head to be thrown or the vespa or whatever it might be in Italy. But, you know, it was— it felt, you know, the atmosphere was thick and it felt like. It felt every bit as important as the match really was. Yeah, it was brilliant, it was brilliant to be there. And I know that you weren't there, were you? Were you? But you were busy though, weren't you?

You were busy watching the match.

I was in the, I was in the pub watching this one with some friends. Yes I think it's probably the— I was, I was smoking at the time, and I think I just, I must have gone to the cigarette vending machine about 4 times in this game in the pub just to restock because I think I just had about 5 cigarettes on the go at any given moment during the game. It was just, it was just an absolute sack of nerves throughout. I mean, it was the most— even on— because you describing that, even on TV, I mean, I had the volume turned up super loud in a pub. You could sense it was a hostile atmosphere. I mean, it was just, it was rocking, wasn't it, St Andrew's? And it seemed like every corner of the ground was rocking.

It wasn't just like, you know, one end where the noise is coming from. It just seemed like it was the whole stadium was just so supercharged. And, you know, absolutely God knows what that's like to play in, but I think it must have been one of the most hostile atmospheres Watford have ever experienced in any game. Because it was intense and they could very nearly have buckled and lost the game in the first sort of 15 minutes, couldn't they?

Something Taylor must have said to the team before the match is to keep it tight and, you know, hostile atmosphere, that's what you want to do, you want to try and silence the crowd, but you know, just like the first leg, there's an early goal and it's to the home team. It's a bit of a mix-up goal, you know, the ball's poked past Chamberlain who sort of hesitates a bit rushing out, it bounces off the post and Dele Adebola and Steve Palmer are both trying to get to the ball and it finds its way into the back of the net. But I mean, that first part of the game, we just couldn't, we couldn't put our foot in the ball, we couldn't get out of our half. I watched the match back, the entire match, it's on YouTube, and it's the first time I've seen it, you know, since, since I was there. Yeah, we really, we really struggled to impose ourselves on the game. I don't know if it was I don't know if it was the quality of Birmingham.

I mean, they didn't seem to be playing particularly well. We just couldn't get the ball and do anything with it or if it was the, you know, the event or the atmosphere, or it must have been a bit of—.

It must have been a bit of both. I think Birmingham played better than they had in the first leg, but they also were— they were particularly— they were raised by their crowd, and I think that must have been really, really difficult to settle in and get into your own rhythm in terms of, you know, like I said, I think they. It could have gone a lot worse because we were rocking you know, having conceded that goal in the first 2 minutes, and it could have gone away from us. So they could have gone on and scored 2 or 3 in the first half. They definitely had the chance to do that. Yeah. And we wouldn't have come back.

It would have been over. So, you know, the fact that they just did hang in there, I think, was the absolute name of the game in that opening half, but even longer than that. I mean, I just, I think they didn't really— they never really, until probably going into extra time when it started to get more stretched, I just— they didn't really threaten very often, Watford, in this game, and just to score, did they? I mean, we didn't know.

I mean, no shots on target until the first period, you know, deep into the first period of extra time. Yeah, you know David Holdsworth had been sent off for second bookable offence. And it's kind of, you know, it's one of those ones where you think, you know, it's probably been slightly harshly done there. I think it was. And, you know, he was up against Ngonge, who was giving it as good as he got, and he could have been sent off. You know Palmer had been booked in the first 10 minutes or so and had another challenge where you know,. On another day, he might have got a second yellow for that as well.

So it felt a bit fiery. We weren't imposing ourselves. We didn't get that shot, even though shot on target, as I said, until, until extra time had begun. The one thing that I think kind of helped the flow of the game, because we were increasingly under pressure— Chamberlain was doing very well, he was, he was repelling attacks. Page and Palmer were doing pretty well actually, like Things were getting past them, but not everything. The team as a whole was, I think, determined and solid without being excellent. And certainly we didn't have the attacking excellence that we'd seen sort of during April, for example.

Mm-hmm. Alon Hazan comes on and I think does really, really well. It was interesting to watch it back because I think. I think perhaps in some fans' eyes, he's almost the forgotten man of this team. But he was excellent, really excellent. And I don't think he's the forgotten man in terms of the players. I mean, any Watford fan who's seen that 20-year reunion that Jono organised to celebrate this season, he's very highly thought of, I think, by the players in terms of his skill and the way that he kind of assimilates into what is ostensibly a British squad, British team.

And his first time that he's played outside of Israel, I think possibly, certainly the first time he's played in the UK. And I think he was a very highly regarded member of the squad and of the team, even though he wasn't playing every match. Yeah. But he comes on and he just kind of calms things down a little bit, a bit like Bonnot did in a few games, kind of in the run-up to it. And he makes things happen, sort of, certainly makes things happen better than some of our other players. But yeah, it's backs to the wall, isn't it? But you know, all of that period of extra time, I don't know how nervous you were, probably, probably went through most of your cigarettes in the extra time period.

Most of my cigarettes and probably several extra pints of lager as well, I think, at that point. I think everything was just becoming a bit of a blur. I don't remember much about extra time at all. I just remember thinking that I just hope that we— I didn't, I never felt that we were going to win it in extra time. I was just like, let's just try and get to pens and then it's with the gods. And so it was. But up until that point, it had been 2 and a half hours of absolute hell, I think.

There was nothing to enjoy about that, just sort of no fingernails left. You know, guts in an absolute mess, just sort of stomach in knots. Like, it was, it was really unpleasant to watch as a fan because there was just— you just— there were so many moments where it could have gone and they just managed to hang on there. I think extra time probably was a bit calmer because Birmingham had been playing for quite a long time with 10 men and were not being as— they didn't want to lose it then either. So as often is the case in extra time, it gets to the point where no one wants to take too many risks in that stage. No one really went out to try and win it. I think, like you say, with Hazan coming on, he at least was able to help us to keep the ball a bit better in that last half an hour in particular, I think.

And as the game went on and you needed that on the pitch, calm things down a little bit, but then. We survive it and it goes to pens. Yeah, I mean, indescribable tension. It was like nothing else I've ever watched in my life as a Watford fan. I can't imagine how horrifically unbearable it was in the away end because I mean, I've. From friends who were there, I don't know what your view was like. I know lots of people who could barely see what was going on in terms of the penalties because they were so low down that they didn't have a particularly good view and it was quite obscure.

So I think lots of them were just actually just barely able to watch through, through nerves anyway. But Watford had to take the penalties. Birmingham won the toss, so the penalties were being taken at the, at the Birmingham home fans' end. So obviously you had all of the added chaos for the Watford takers of, you know, the Birmingham fans doing everything they could to try and put them off. We'll come on to some of the unorthodox techniques as we talk about these penalties, but it was a penalty shootout that went on for about 4 days, didn't it? I mean, it just went on forever.

It felt like it. My coping mechanism was to see who was picking up the ball, and like you say, the view wasn't great. We were sat in such a way that the crossbar of the goal nearest to us was kind of obscuring what we were trying to watch. You could see who was picking up, well, you could see the numbers on the back of the shirts or the haircut or whatever it might be. But my coping mechanism was just to almost silently over and over, like a mantra, kind of sing to myself that player's song. It's like the most stupid, I'm not a remotely superstitious man, but like that was what was going through my head.

Anything to try and weather the storm. It in.

Yeah, it's just to try and transmit my support to Peter Kennedy or to Steve Palmer, you know, as it began. It worked for Kennedy because, yeah, just about went in, didn't it?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think they had prepared, they had practiced, they had, you know, as much, but you can't— it's obviously important to practice. I think you'd be remiss to say like, oh, you can't practise penalties, because obviously you can practise a penalty shootout. You can't practise the occasion, it's a problem. And I know that they did have them walking from the halfway line to take them. And I think you've noted that Kieran Cosgrove got Luther to borrow 4 large speakers from Destiny's to simulate the crowd noise, which is just wonderful. They borrowed the sound system from a local discotheque to—.

Luther, go up Destiny's, come back with 4 speakers. I mean, yeah, but you know what the hell, they were trying things. And I think that is worthy of praise is much more than ridicule because it's doing whatever they could to try and prepare them for every eventuality so that if it goes to penalties, it's not like, oh God, what are we doing now? We haven't prepared for this. So I think. It was, you know, they deserve praise for that. But the penalties, yeah, they go on forever.

They go on forever and ever and ever. The one, you know, and they get more and more like just close, don't they? And gut-wrenching. Like, there's Robert Page's one is the one that really sticks in my mind because. His one is rising as it's sort of heading towards the goal and it clips, it takes a bit of paint off the underside of the bar as it goes in. Yeah, it does, yeah.

I mean, Richard Johnson's is like that as well, you know, that guy goes in and slams it. Bazeley's is right in the top corner, which is really good. It's Steve Palmer's which is—.

He sort of tops it, doesn't he?

He does, and you could sort of see a slightly nervous look at the ref, can't you? Where, during his run-up, he's like, 'Am I okay to take it?' He all feels a little bit too hurried. Kennedy gets to first and I think the keeper gets his fingertips, doesn't he? Yeah. Palmer and Johnson and Bazeley, and Mooney rams one down the middle, doesn't he? Deeney style. But then, yeah, then it's Page, and yeah, the ball's on Page.

I mean, centre-back, I mean, not renowned for striking the ball in any sense really.

Jason Wimerape noted that Page apparently said that as he turned to run up to the ball, he saw a pair of naked ass cheeks trying to put him off his shot. Was he aiming for them? I don't know, I don't know. But just to sort of, you know, fully describe the circumstances that these Watford players were taking penalties in, they had the bare backsides of Birmingham fans to contend with as well as they ran up to trying to put that out of your mind. It almost made me retire from football. But yeah, but then, you know, as is always the case comes down to your goalkeeper has to, has to do something if you're going to win one of these. And.

Alec Chamberlain, it's made already safe from Paul Furlong, and then he makes a decisive save in about the 57th round of penalties from Holland. And it was just— there was a sort of— I don't know what it was like in the away end from watching it. It was a sort of— there's that sort of the moment between him saving it and the ball come out, and there's sort of like just a pause that— yeah. Before everything goes, where you just, you're sort of just taking it in for a second. It actually seems to last for quite a long time, even though it's just a split second. But time seems to stand still for a second. Yeah.

I mean, it felt, it felt like a, it felt like it was occurring like 100 miles away, not 100 metres away. Yeah. And, you know, it's almost like the, it took that long to get for the light and the sound to reach us, to realise that's what's happened. And I guess in the context of the entire season, not the match and not the period of time that we're talking about, not the weeks and the months of this part of the season, but in the context of the entire season, it was just, have we really just done that? Like, it was— it kind of brought back a 'that's unbelievable' kind of feeling to me, even though, you know, like. He'd gone to sudden death, and obviously, like, if, you know, if I think Kevin Poole, the keeper, had taken the penalty—.

Yeah, that deserves a place in the Pressmanian Hall of Fame.

It does, it was absolutely— he walloped it down. It was unsavable, yeah. He was wearing exactly the same kit as Alec Chamberlain, so it was one of those kind of like Spider-Man things, wasn't it?

Like pointing at each other. Yeah, they were Le Coq Sportif as well, weren't they, Birmingham? They were. But yes, I think for me, like, the immediate reaction was not even the thought of going into the Premier League. It was just the excitement that I would be going to see Watford at Wembley.

And yeah, I didn't, I didn't even think about the Premier League at that time. It was all about Wembley because we had been 15 years, hadn't it, which was, which is my entire lifetime of watching Watford, like, yeah, slightly more than.

I've been to Wembley for other events, you know, I've been to see other football matches at Wembley, but the thought of being able to go and see my team run out at Wembley was just so exciting. It was so exciting, and that was just, that was all I was, I was genuinely all I was thinking about. Obviously, as it got today, it's like, okay, well, there is the prospect of Premier League football, but yeah, but it was just getting to Wembley was everything. It was everything.

Yeah, which is quite different from, I don't know, say Leicester, someone like that. Leicester had been in the playoffs for like the playoff final for 3 years in a row, and it's kind of, you know in the mid-'90s, and it's kind of. I don't know, I guess you lose the excitement of getting to Wembley. I like what, you know, we can say now about the playoff semi— the excuse me, the FA Cup semi-finals being played at Wembley and stuff like that, kind of whether that devalues the Wembley experience. But at this time, Watford had been nowhere near Wembley since 1984 you know, bar a failed playoff attempt in the late '80s. But I mean, this was, this was extraordinary given that you know, 2 years ago we were being relegated down into the third tier. It was crazy.

I've got to give a mention to Mike Smart's message about us from about this game because he said him and his dad lived in Birmingham and they got their tickets but it's in the home end. It was like, if you think it was loud from where you were, they had to be in with the Birmingham fans for 120 minutes keeping silent and holding it all in even when Chamberlain saves the pen and then exploding in noise when they got back to the car. I can't imagine what that felt like, having to sit on your— you can't even sit on your hands, you kind of have to pretend to be happy as well, I think, when you're in that situation.

I couldn't imagine myself being in that position, but Mooney talks about the noise as well, doesn't he?

He does talk about the noise, yeah. The noise levels, he says in his own words, says, 'I've never heard in any stadium anywhere in the world as a player or a fan,' and. He says, I remember trying to scream at Peter Kennedy that we just needed to stay calm and keep the ball when he was 10 yards away from me and couldn't hear anything that he was saying. So, you know, I guess that we were talking about, that is how difficult it was to play in those circumstances. And yeah, the fact that Mooney and the players remember it as being that intense as well, remarkable experience for everyone to come through it. And I think it's also worth just this game and the occasion of it and what the playoffs bring, I suppose, to, you know, clubs that haven't seen that level of, you know, occasion for a while, and the excitement that generates is, you know, the fans were— this away tie at Birmingham, fans were camping out to get tickets for that one.

I think several of our listeners have talked about, you know, being outside Vicarage Road at, you know, midnight, 1 in the morning, coming out of the pubs to get in the queue for the game. I know Pete Fincham, Matt Rowson certainly did, and so when the turnstiles open, sort of charging in to get their tickets to make sure they've got one. And, you know, those are just scenes that you don't associate with Watford. I mean, obviously they're not scenes that you associate with football, period, now, because people don't queue up outside ticket offices to buy their tickets anymore. But this was a. It was that sort of occasion. And, you know, I think someone else remarked that actually they still had some left the following morning, so you could have just turned up in the morning and bought one.

But where's the fun in that, as Pete, I think, rightly pointed out? It's like, these are memories, these are memories that last a lifetime, and the memories of sort of queuing outside the turnstiles for these prized golden tickets for the away leg at St Andrew's. I think these are the things that people do remember. For a lifetime and, you know, sticking in mind the memories of the occasion. And that's why playoffs can be a wonderful, beautiful thing. They can also be the worst thing in the world. But fantastic stories that we got from loads of people about this game, didn't we?

In terms of games of the '90s, I think the Birmingham away second leg of the playoff semi-final was. Was one that really captured people's attention and enjoyed reminiscing about it. It's really stuck in their mind. I mean, like, it's almost like getting to Wembley was almost more of a occasion than being at Wembley.

But yeah, I think because of the nature that we did it. Yeah, it is the circumstances. Yeah, definitely. But that's not to say, you know, we're not stopping there, are we? We're not stopping there. We're not stopping there. And actually, one of my— talking about queuing up for tickets, I can remember queuing up, going to the Vic to get my tickets and just, I can't remember what day, it was a weekday and going in the afternoon or probably going over after work over to the ticket office with a mate to go and get my— that was like, you didn't— they were doing it staggered, I think so, because I was a season ticket at this time.

So the season ticket holders first and then, you know, members, etc., and general public. But it wasn't like you had to— there was enough sick tickets to go around, so you knew you weren't going to miss out. But even that felt exciting. It was just so— I loved, I loved going to get my ticket for Wembley. It was just going to Vicarage Road to get my ticket and just walking away from Vicarage Road on like a warm May evening, a very pleasant May evening, with like my ticket for the playoff final in my hand. It was just absolute buzz. I was loving every second of it at that point.

I was just like, this is the greatest period of, you know, my football supporting life.

This is all anticipation at that point.

Oh yeah, but that is a bit like Christmas, isn't it? It's like the anticipation is often better than the day itself. It's like, it's all the build-up to it is, you just want to savour every minute of it, you know, and soak up every minute of it. And as it got closer, yeah, it was just couldn't think about anything else. Everything was playoff final and making plans with friends about, you know,. What time we were going up to Wembley, down to Wembley, and you know where we were going to go, etc., and how we're going to meet up with everyone beforehand and where we're going to be, all of that stuff. And it's also great for Watford because it's such a— it's almost like going to Watford because it's so near.

But yeah, it's about as local a game as we could ask for, going to Wembley. So you know, it's an extra for me coming from Tring, it was like an extra 10 minutes on the train, really.

So, yeah, well, we drove to Watford and then got on the train. I seem to remember having a drink at that pub that's next to Watford Junction. Oh yeah, I can't remember. And then getting the tube into Wembley, yeah.

Yeah, and there was, I think, the other— I can remember going deliberately, wanting to— we weren't actually on the bit where Wembley Way is, where we had been. I'd met some friends to have a few beers beforehand, but then insisting that we walked around to Wembley Way because I wanted, I wanted the walk up to Wembley, like, before the game. Yeah, I didn't just want to sort of cut around the side. I was like, I want to see it. Like, yes, I want to do the, do the proper— go in the front door. Yeah, go in the front door. Exactly.

I got in there reasonably early still, like not like ludicrous early, but it's probably there about sort of 45 minutes before kickoff. So the players were out doing their warm-up runs, and as they were sort of— they were just sort of jogging from one touchline to the other in a line, just doing sort of like warming up. And each time they ran over to one side, they'd get sort of round of applause from the Watford fans on that side, then a round of applause. Yeah, just celebrating and running backwards and forwards on the pitch. That was the— this again, that sort of like just how excited everyone was, I guess. And I know, you know, the new Wembley is spectacularly massive, isn't it?

It's like this, you know, colossal structure of 3 tiers. And but yeah, for me, like the old Wembley, despite it being, you know, a crumbling old, you know, hellhole was something else when it was full because you had that one huge sweeping bank of fans going all the way around the goal. And because it went so far back from behind the goal, it just was a huge curve, wasn't it, of yeah, of colour. And when it— and Watford, because of the colours, because they're such a, you know, brightly coloured side. You just, you have that huge bank of yellow and red, and it really took your breath away when you saw it. And I just couldn't stop just taking it all in.

Yeah, I think you put that, I think you fit that well because I think my initial feeling when I got to Wembley was like, well, this is a shithole, isn't it? Not the place, the stadium.

Yeah.

Like, I'd never been to Wembley before. I'd never, I've never I hadn't been to watch England match or anything like that, it was the first time there. And it's kind of this sense of like, okay, well, I'm now at the home of football and it's not living up to my expectations. You know, I wanted, almost wanted something more of this, but then you get in there and maybe your seats are cramped and maybe the view is not as great as it might have been at one of these very modern stadiums that was rebuilt in the '90s, but like you say, you look around and the yellow, the red, and the black everywhere, it's like, well, I'm instantly at home here. This is an amazing experience, and it's kind of weird for me to go from like that, like, mild disappointment, you know, we're playing at Wembley, it's not really my place to be disappointed with Wembley, but then to go through and then just be really proud that we were there. And so seeing all these scarves waving and the flags waving and everyone with their yellow shirts on, and you know, fully half of Wembley, minus the corporate staff, but fully half of Wembley wearing our colours, that was amazing, absolutely amazing.

Yeah, and I think that's best demonstrated by when the players walk out onto the pitch and Graham Taylor's leading out Watford and he's got this sort of enormous smile on his face. Absolutely beaming, isn't it? I think that's because he's walking— the tunnel was at the Bolton end, isn't it? And he's walking out and he can just see the Watford fans. He's walking towards them and he sees all of that and it's just lighting up his face.

And I think, Christ, I feel so proud when I see him doing that. Yeah, like, imagine how proud he was. Yeah. And, you know, like, it really, really puts a smile on my face when I see him doing that.

Same, absolutely same. I think, like, it's one of the defining images of him because it's over And Mike spoke about this, didn't he, Mike Vince, he was on the pod in terms of what that game meant to him and, you know, sort of, I suppose, that kind of banishing the demons and everything that sort of like, but I think he looks so, like you say, he looks so proud to be there and was loving it, loving being there with his team, but also like the fact that the connection of the man with the club and with the fans, I think that just is, completely epitomised by that single moment. And that's before we've even kicked a ball. But yeah, and obviously as a fan, you couldn't see his face at that time because he didn't have the video screens and things like that. But the noise was tremendous, and it felt— you just felt like we've got a chance here. Not because I didn't feel— I didn't feel like arrogant that we were definitely going to win. I felt like we got a chance because we'd already beaten Bolton twice, and so I wasn't scared of Bolton.

I knew that they had good players, and I knew that they would ask us some questions in the game, but I knew that we'd beat— we knew that we'd beaten them twice, and that does— I think that counts for something. When you know that you can beat a team you go in there with some confidence, and. We did, but it was a tight game, wasn't it, actually? You know, particularly first half. Yeah, we— I think dangerous early on.

I was— there were several occasions where I think Eidur Gudjohnsen should have— couldn't— should have scored. And it was nerve-wracking. I mean, we weren't without our chances, but we didn't have any— I wouldn't say that we had any clear-cut chances, whereas I think they did, you know. I don't think we were doing this on an xG basis. I think they would have been well ahead, wouldn't they? But yeah you know, Chamberlain made a couple of decent stops. And our defenders made a couple of good tackles, but you know, it didn't really feel like we were imposing ourselves on the occasion.

I don't know if you—.

No, I think in the first, I think in the first half, definitely not. I think, you know, the set piece that Watford score from is they win it thanks to Bazeley's endeavors. As we've already talked about Bazeley and his contributions this season, it's another of those where he makes something out of nothing by, you know, pushing forward, beating his man, and trying to whip across him, which goes out for a corner. But, you know, it was really, really good play from Bazeley and putting Bolton on the back foot. But even then, the manner of then the way that Watford score is one of those, you know, once in a lifetime moments that, you know, you just cannot counter for in terms of, you know, if you're Bolton, I mean, you just have to— the ball gets headed clear and all of a sudden someone slammed it back over the head of everyone with an overhead kick from an angle which loops over everyone, including Neil Cox, I think, who's standing on the line for Bolton.

Yeah, Michel Ngonge in the back of the net at that point as well.

You kind of wonder that— you hope he doesn't come out and clear it by accident. It's just an absolutely one-off moment on a set-piece occasion such as a playoff final at Wembley to open the scoring with an overhead kick. And Nicky Wright had, you know, he'd not scored that many goals that season. He'd been, you know, involved a lot and been always, you know, contributing in terms of his effort and trying to make things happen, missed a lot of chances, to then score that sort of goal in a final was just absolutely wonderful. And I just, I was just screaming my head off and just couldn't believe what I'd seen. I just couldn't believe my eyes.

Absolutely couldn't believe my eyes. That's when I was screaming at my friends like, oh my God, did you see that? Oh yeah, everyone's seen it. Yeah, just jumping up. Everyone's just absolutely bedlam. Everyone's just I think it was one of those goals where I was just sort of grabbing people. People were sort of grabbing each other next to them and shaking them, just grabbing complete strangers, just sort of shaking each other violently.

It's like, oh my God, who are you? Just absolutely lost it completely. And then it was, you know, before you knew it was halftime and. Yeah, gone in 1-0 up and no one knew what the hell was going on at that point. It was just the most supercharged atmosphere, I think. Just a sort of moment to calm down, wasn't it? I think at half time.

Yeah, I think it was strange because, like, you know, probably hadn't gone— we probably hadn't deserved to go in 1-0 up. No, I don't think we had done. And it was such a strange goal, you know, it was a brilliant goal. It was such an unexpectedly—.

Yeah, it's just instinct. It's just one of those instinctive moments. Just— he saw it, you know, falling over his shoulder, and instinct takes over.

Yeah.

And he pulled it off.

I mean, it's like one of those kind of like weird slackline goals, isn't it? Where you think like, why is he trying to do that? Okay, right. Because he was— he's not helping it back into the box, which is what he's there to do. That's why he's there. No, he's just gone for it. He's gone for it.

Yeah, he's gone for it. And, you know, maybe maybe 9 times out of 10 that goes into Row Z or whatever, but it didn't, and made a lot of people very happy, didn't it?

Certainly did. It certainly did. And I think in the second half, you know, it's still— it is still tight, but it's more of an even game, I think, in terms of Watford do have— I think Mooney has a decent header that he doesn't quite manage to—. Yeah, he does. Yeah, what they're starting to ask a few more questions. The game, as you'd expect, does get a bit more stretched, as you know, the big Wembley pitch and tired legs, all the clichés come out. But you know, Bolton are starting to throw more players forwards as they go in search of an equalizer, and that's obviously going to leave more space for Watford as the game goes on, which Watford, I think they just play it very well because at no point do they— they don't overcommit trying to go for the second.

They know that they've got a decent defence and they feel like they can, you know, generally stand up to what Bolton's throwing at them.

It's almost like they've already weathered the storm. Yeah, they just need to hold tight and deal with business as usual.

So that's just— yeah, and this is the run that they've been on, I guess, is that they've, they've been through this. And that's what you talked about in terms of momentum going into playoffs. It's like once they've got, you know, 1-0 up, then they're like, well, we've been in this position a lot recently and we know what to do. And they're not, they're not playing, they're not dominating the game, but they know that they can see it through. And as the game wears on, you hoped that they would get a chance to finish it off And the way the circumstances that comes about is just, it's Hyde again, isn't it, in midfield. Crunching into someone to win, to win the ball. And then it's Alan Smart, isn't it?

He goes in for a two-footed tackle. Yeah. And then, and then it spills loose. It's quite a, it's quite a strong tackle. It is a strong tackle, but the ref— and then the ball will— but you're right that it's that Hyde is key because it kind of spills loose to him and he sets, he sets Kennedy on his way down the left-hand side. And bearing in mind, like Not long before, Kennedy has been in this position charging kind of down that sort of inside left position, Peter like smarty alongside him, square, square, square, square, and he just kind of like hits something with the outside of his left foot and it, you know, skims past the post, or not even really that close to the post. But this time around it's very different.

Yeah, Smart gets his foot in, goes to Hyde releases Kennedy, And like every touch in that is exactly where it needs to be. It's like Deeney's goal, you know, the famous Deeney goal against Leicester. It's like every touch goes almost to the millimetre where you want it to go to. You know, you couldn't write it any better. And a great cross from Kennedy.

Yeah, and the finish— I think this goal is underrated, which might sound ridiculous, but it doesn't get— because Nick Wright's goal was an overhead kick, that obviously gets— when people talk about the playoff final, they talk about that goal, you know, first and foremost. But technically, Smart's goal is as good as anything, I think, in terms of goals scored that season. It's so difficult the way that he takes that, because Kennedy really fizzes it across the box as well. It does. Low and hard. It's very accurate, but so he can take it in his stride, but it's still— he has to make a perfect contact with it to hit it the way he does because he hits it first time almost off his toes. Yeah, just with a little bit of slice to take so the ball fades away from— yeah, because he can use the pace of the cross, can't he?

Yeah, the pass, you know, he's not trying to lose that. Yeah, steps into it. It is. It is Romário-esque, the way that he knew he'd be back with these again. It's the kind of finish that he did a lot the toe poke finish. But it's very hard. It's very hard to finish like that first time, and if you get it wrong, it's gonna— you're gonna look like an absolute arse.

So it's just pure striker's instinct, I think, and great technique from Smart. And it was one of those ones where, yeah, he hits it. The cross is so firm that it actually flies into the net off his boot without him really having to lash it. He barely breaks stride, doesn't he? Yeah, he barely breaks stride, you're right. It's such a good finish, and then all of a sudden you see the net bulge and Watford have won. You know then that they're going into the Premier League. And again, just absolute bedlam in that Watford end because that's the point when I was like, We're going in.

Yeah, it's done. We're going up into the Premier League. And it's just like, this team that we were watching, most of whom we were watching, you know, playing against York and whoever else, failing against you. Yeah, in the in the Second Division, and they are going to be playing Premier League football next season. That is— that is just— it's literally like— I think that's what's going through my head almost immediately as I was celebrating and going crazy again. But it was like. We're going up, we're actually going up.

And yeah, the realisation that this insane journey that they've been on since, you know, the 20th of March had reached its conclusion with that unbelievable achievement at the end of it.

Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely crazy. Like, I don't remember how I felt at the time, but I mean, I remember my experience of the goals and like As you say, it's jumping up and down and grabbing the people you're next to and in front of and behind of. Absolutely extraordinary, but like, yeah. Smart's goal as a kind of endpoint of the match rather than the final whistle, almost. Yeah, kind of like that. That's when we went up, you know, is when Smart scored. You know, I remember Robert Page has spoken about how he's badgering the referee about when the referee is going to blow up.

I can't remember if that's in the season highlight video or later on, but you know, he's— the ref tells him when, you know, when the keeper takes his goal kick, I'm gonna blow up, sort of thing. And that's when he knows, and he stops and he kind of looks around and he takes it in, because then he knows, you know, like, there's no— there's not going to be like two last-minute corners or anything like that. He knows, he knows that it's done. And bloody hell, yeah, what a release that was.

Yeah, incredible, incredible. And, you know, to see Watford then. To see Graham Taylor celebrating with that team at Wembley after everything that he'd been through. And Mike spoke really eloquently about that in terms of what it meant to him and for his family. And also to see the team lift a trophy, which is always the thing about the playoffs. It's like if you go up automatically second, then you don't get that. But if you win the playoffs, then you get to you get to climb the steps and lift the trophy, but it was everything, you just got everything.

And I think for fans of clubs like Watford, and I know Watford have had a lot of relative success recently, so it's not like, oh, poor little Watford all the time, because they've obviously just spent several seasons in the Premier League and spent a lot of money on players, et cetera. But at this point, and really for like most of their history, these are the occasions, you're not gonna, now more than ever, you're not gonna win major honors. It's very unlikely that you're going to get a chance to do that. You have these moments of the sort of what you— they're sort of like your Champions League final. They're the chance where they are. Yeah, you know, you get to experience a big occasion with a load of pressure and a load of drama, and you get to feel that, you know.

And it's kind of seeing the players feel it as well, you know. Like, I mean, you know, I'm a man that. I haven't watched it for several years, but I imagine if you put me in front of something like DIY SOS, I'd probably shed a tear. But like, seeing Alan Smart talking, like, shaking his hands in front of his head, like, to his wife in the crowd, and seeing the tears come down his face, it's like, you know, that gets me going, you know? Like, it reminds me of the emotion of the day and the emotion of the occasion. And it reminds me of Graham Taylor as well. And like, how proud and emotional he must have felt in terms of, you know, as indeed Mike said about, you know, exorcising some of those ghosts.

But, you know, for those however many thousand fans were there, that's an unforgettable day. You know, there were obviously many more people there than there were at Birmingham. Yeah. But it was such a celebration, you know, post that Bolton game, such a such an outpouring of emotion and I think everyone was just so happy and there was just this feeling that, not how have we done that, because the season built to it over the course of, other than a couple of months, over the course of the entire season, but yeah, absolutely amazing feeling. Never, will never feel anything like that again, I doubt, in terms of football.

No, I agree. I think it's, I know that I won't because it was the sort of, yeah, the pinnacle of that era and it was when I'd been most involved in, you know, as a fan in supporting Watford. And I don't think, even though I still care about them a lot and support them, I will never be— I think that the combination of where they were as a club at that time and the personalities involved and my personal, like, emotional investment in them means that will never be bettered for me. And I think that's true for many other people who experienced that at the time, and that's not, you know, to disrespect anything that the club's done since, it's just what's personal to you, and I think that's just how it is. So Matt, if it's not too great a task, can you wrap up the season from there?

I'm basically in a flood of tears on the floor, but I can't possibly tell you that, yeah.

Well, I think the only other thing I wanted to say, like, on a personal note before you do that is like. Yeah, I think for me also, it's like the stage of my life I was at then as well. And, you know, it wasn't like the best period of my life and had experienced some loss personally and, you know, was probably sort of struggling a bit coming to terms with that and not really knowing what I was doing, etc. And so football, like for lots of people, is a, is a bit of escapism, isn't it? It's a bit of an outlet. And I think having the team at that moment do that was like something that I just, you know, I'd never anticipated that they would do that.

And it was— I think that's why I'll also always— it would always mean even more. It's not just because of what they did, but because of like how I felt at the time and how much then sort of happiness it brought me to be able to sort of go along with them for that ride and enjoy it. And the fact that we've, you know, spent so much time talking about it and so many other people spend so much time talking about it is— that's, that's what you get from it. That's what—.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I understand that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.

So tell us, tell us, try and, try and tell us some other What can we— what else? What have we not— I suppose best to say, what have we not said?

What have we not said? Well, we haven't kind of— so we've done a couple of episodes on this, so we should probably do our now standard kind of positives and negatives. Yeah. And kind of talk through that. Overwhelmingly positive, obviously. One thing that stood out to me is— none of these are going to be surprises or indeed unique thoughts. But that— I hesitate to call it a masterstroke because it's the result of circumstances, but nobody could possibly have expected pushing Mooney up front and getting like, you know, whatever it was, 18-7, or whatever it was during the run-in.

I mean, he'd been a centre-back a couple of years ago, and halfway through this season he'd agreed to move to Hibs. And that ultimately fell through and was, you know, kind of told by Taylor, you know, you can stay and you can fight and you can, you know, you can make the most of the opportunities that might be there. And the opportunity there was Alan Smart getting sent off in that tumultuous game against Tranmere, you know, that was a turning point for the club and for individual players as well. And that brought Mooney into it and it seems unlikely that the club would have been promoted had Mooney not been in there and, you know, got those first couple of goals, got that momentum, you know, the word we keep using. And kind of, you know, when strikers go on those runs, they just, you know, they just keep scoring, don't they? Like, it happens all the time, you see it all the time, and it's great.

It was wonderful to see it happen to not only a Watford striker, but a player that we all already absolutely bloody adored. And he was already, you know, I don't know if he was quite a kind of a Watford hero or Watford legend, but he was certainly like, you know, maybe a cult icon or something like that. But that period of goal-scoring form. Which resulted in us being promoted, I think turned him into like a, just a, just, you know, a legend for want of a better word, you know. Like, I think, I think it, I think it transformed his relationship with the club, which was already good, into something like, yeah, okay, you're ours and, you know, we're yours sort of thing.

Yeah, and he never really looked back after that, did he? Because he was now a centre forward, no question of him returning to the back three or midfield. That was— so, I mean, it was like, he's a striker, he's attacking crosses, he's got a sort of poacher's instinct, he's great, great at heading.

And he developed that over the course of the, you know, from the mid-'90s onwards, hadn't he? Because, you know, he didn't have that same skill set or even really the same sort of body type, or that he did to a degree, but that was, you know He learned how to be a striker, didn't he? I think he did, particularly in the late '90s.

Yeah. And that was, that was it for him then. It was like, that was his position. And having sort of filled in all over the place. It was now like, that's his position and that's where he's going to play and that's, that's where he went for the rest of his career at Watford and other clubs as well. And I think, you know, very successfully.

So it was clearly not just, you know, that it wasn't just a flash in the pan. That was, that was him from that moment on. But it was that, it was that period of this season that was transformative for him. Completely agree.

I think something else to remind ourselves is that we started the season with Keith Millen and Dean Yates at centre-back. Yeah. It really didn't last very long, you know, both of them suffered injuries. We spoke in the previous episode about Dean Yates and his obvious quality but his injury record. But Palmer and Page, I mean, Palmer was so versatile and, you know, obviously evidenced by him wearing all those shirts the season before, but he was so reliable. He won Player of the Year and he was great, he was brilliant. And Page was kind of everything you'd want I don't know how old he was, maybe 25, something like that.

25 Going on 35, wasn't he? He's like sort of had the—. Yeah, no, he almost was the man he is now.

And he is— yeah, he was you know,.

Yeah, he didn't have much hair by this stage either, did he?

No, exactly, he kind of looked exactly the same. Yeah, but he was a big character. Yeah, already. And a great central defender in this league. And the pair of them formed an almighty partnership. You know, we didn't have the best defensive record in the league. You know, Chamberlain had been Player of the Season when we were promoted, so we knew that our goalkeeper and our two centre-backs, the, you know, the two centre-backs who would play the majority of the season, we knew they were great.

The way we played kind of opened them up to, you know, they wouldn't have been able to stop everything, would they? Because we wouldn't have been able to score the goals that we scored.

No, and I don't think Graham Taylor's teams generally did have the best records, so you kind of accepted that. But yeah, there was— they formed a formidable partnership anyway, despite that, Page and Palmer, in terms of just making life very difficult for opposition strikers and backing each other up and vital blocks when the chips were down, that kind of thing. All the stuff that you kind of want to see from a Graham Taylor team.

Yeah, I think in terms of like duos, you know, we've already, we've already spoken about them, but the Hyde, the Hyde and Johnson duo, you know. Yeah, over the course of the season, as I say, our defence changed due to injury, our attack changed due to injury, suspension, form, player sales early on in the season, things like that. But the midfield was, other than when Johnson was injured, suspended Hyde and Johnson played together the entire way through the season, and they formed and had already formed this kind of telepathic understanding of, you know, who stays, who goes, you know, who's going to put the tackle in, who's going to make the run off the ball. And as we've already said, Johnson, Johnson could play it around the park, and Hyde could get around the park and kind of do things with the ball to play people in. So yeah, I think a kind of other positive is those two becoming sort of even more formidable, really, you know, even more than they already were. They just grew and grew and grew as the season went on. Like all the other players, they dipped in, you know, in the early, the early months of 1999, but they were astonishing.

Yeah, in the run-in, absolutely incredible.

Yeah, two of my favourites of all time, from that, without question. And like, I probably get carried away talking about them as a midfield duo with nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses, et cetera, but I do think they were fantastic when they really hit their stride together and they had a natural understanding that, you know,. It's hard to create sometimes that sort of, you know, natural chemistry between your midfield pair, ability to sort of know how each other plays and to complement each other the way that they did. Wonderful to watch over this season, and amazing that they played so many games.

You know, like, you know, nowadays they'd be, they'd be rested in and out, wouldn't they? They wouldn't perhaps play the cup games or whatever, but you know, they probably played 50 games each this year. So amazing. Just to throw another duo at you, Smart and Wright. Both made a hell of a step up from a struggling Carlisle team in the division below. I mean, obviously they both scored at Wembley, obviously they've cemented their status amongst Watford fans, but in different ways they both had fantastic seasons, didn't they?

They did, well, they both just made some very important contributions, I think. You know, Wright was very easy to enjoy as a Watford player because he was so, you know, all action, you know, literally running himself off the pitch. Several times where he had run out of energy through overexertion. But, you know, a very useful player on this day. And Smart just scored some really important goals. He didn't score, you know, a bucketload, but showed that there was a classy player in there. And I think they both just seem to really enjoy.

The opportunity that they had to make that step up with Watford and to be part of this team. There was a— they both just slotted into that, the team. And I mean the team in the broadest sense, not just the starting 11. Yeah, they both just fitted in. They were the right characters, weren't they, to fit into the unit that they already had, which was, you know, credit to Taylor and his scouts because they obviously saw something that they liked there. And it wasn't just probably their performances, it was something about them as well. Yeah, that made them think they could fit in, and they were absolutely right.

I think that kind of speaks to kind of the last, the last of the main positives that I'd like to say, and we could keep talking about them, we could come up with as many positives as we wanted. Yeah, the kind of team spirit and the likability and the determination and the drive of this set of players. And the key point that I think you made there is it's not 1 to 11, it's 1 to you know, 18, isn't it? Or how many were, you know, regularly involved? Even the likes of Clint Easton, he wasn't involved that much, but when he was, you know, he was there in his suit at Wembley cheering on as much as anybody else. Alex Bonnot, Chris Day, people, the players that weren't, you know,. In the first 11 every week, it felt like they were, you know, the Band of Brothers, weren't they?

They were a squad of players that were all pulling in the right direction. And that happens, it's vanishingly rare that happens. And I think Graham Taylor is a reason why that happened.

I completely agree. I think it's the intangible thing that you can't, the stats don't show, you know, expected great bunch of lads. I don't know if that's an indicator, but this team, yeah, they were excelling on those metrics, the GBOL metric. They were off the charts. And it matters over the course of the season. I think it's easy to say that when they've achieved something, obviously, like, you know, you can be a likeable team, obviously, Most fans like teams when they're winning, but there was, yeah, there was, they didn't win every game convincingly and they didn't win every game. And, you know, they had to really fight for a lot of those wins, but there was something there that,.

You could just identify with. And it felt like a Watford team. It felt like what you expected from Watford in the best, the best examples of what you'd expect from Watford. Yeah, and that's why we'll never forget them. And that's why all the fans who were part of that season will never forget it. And that's why so many people flooded our mentions when we asked them for their reflections on this season and their moments, was because We'll always love talking about it. We'll always love sharing our memories, even if we've already shared them a million times.

People will always want to talk about it again because it was so much fun.

The only negatives of this season I can think of are all based around players being injured. Yeah, they couldn't take as much part in that as we would have liked them to, you know, as we've already said about Millen and Yates. Tony Daley was so good on his day, and just weren't enough of those days really, were there? Like, you know, he battled to get that contract and was instrumental in that win at Birmingham, but that turned out to be his last game for Watford. He didn't play again after that. You know, and we've spoken about Gifton and, you know, how very sad that was. And in between recording the previous episode and this one, he's obviously succeeded in gaining a very— it was his pro license, wasn't it?

Yeah, that's right. He's got his fully sort of qualified with his coaching badges now. Excellent.

Yeah, so really, really pleased to see that. I mean, you know, I'm really— I don't know about you, I don't know if you could think of any others, but I'm really picking up things that might be considered negatives. Obviously, you know, you know, Gifton's injury was a real negative, and for those players involved otherwise it was negatives. But I think it's difficult to talk about, you know, bad things that happened along the way because we were able to overcome most of them.

I think that's right. I think if you were going to pick a negative, it would actually be— I suppose it's more one that goes into the following season, but it would be that. That team never really got back together again because of injuries. This was— yeah, they— that was their pinnacle, and they never really got to— they didn't get the chance to see what they could have done together the following season because they were denied that by injuries. Which is kind of, I suppose, a bit of a spoiler for the following season. It's a future negative, isn't it?

Future negative. But I think that would be the only thing about this season is that— but I think, you know, the players are quite— I spent— they're quite philosophical about that in terms of they all— you talked about that reunion that they had that Jono organised and the fact that they were all there and lovely to watch. I think, I think they know— I think they— it meant, yeah, like you said, talking about that, it meant something to them. It was, for most of them, probably the pinnacle of their career, and they've always got that to look back on, regardless of the fact of whether their careers were blighted by injury after that, or, you know, they went elsewhere, or things didn't work out for them. They've always got this, they've always got this achievement, and they've always got that experience. And like, you know, I think you described them as a sort of band of brothers, but it feels a bit like that they could sort of, whatever's happened to them in their lives since then, they can always we look back on this with tremendous pride and deservedly so, deservedly so. Absolutely, they've certainly earned that, haven't they?

Yes.

Well. Well, what else can we say about Watford in the 1998-99 season? It was, it was an extraordinary culmination of a few years' work, wasn't it, from that team? You know, the bulk of that team got promoted the year before, and the bulk of that team had kind of languished in mid-table in the third tier, and to get them up to the top table was an incredible, incredible achievement. And you don't see successive promotions very often, and you certainly don't do it— you certainly don't see it with essentially the same great bunch of lads. So, no, yeah, I mean, it's— it lives long in my memory, and I'm sure I, you know, I'm sure it's the same for everybody. This was the pinnacle of the '90s, and it was the pinnacle of my Watford supporting career to this point.

But I think this will always be the this will always be the high point.

I don't think there's anything more we need to say on it, Matt. I think that's been an absolute pleasure discussing that season.

We are going to carry on. That was the last full season of the '90s. We've got a couple of things that we'd still like to do, and I'm sure we'll be getting our listeners involved in some of those. And we do intend to look at the next season, even though that bleeds very slightly into the 2000s. Well, thank you everybody for listening, and we'll be back very soon for another episode. Until then, take care.

Oh my word! No wonder the smiles are there.