Team of the 90s

Hello and welcome back to Oh My Word, the podcast about Watford FC in the 1990s. I'm Matthew, and as ever, I'm joined by Michael. How you doing, Michael? Long time no see.

Yeah, long time no see. Back, good to be back for a bumper Christmas special.

You got the headphones and microphone out of storage, did you?

I did, found them, found them rattling around somewhere. Yep, still works, still works. Looking forward to this.

Good, dusted off the kit and ready to go. Well, today's mission is we are trying to establish the essence of Watford's '90s in a single XI. I don't think we're looking for a group of players that kind of best represent the decade in its entirety, whether that's floundering in the third tier or sitting in mid-table mediocrity, or even racing away to a second successive promotion. In practicalities, Michael, I think what we're after here is some sort of combination of quality and longevity. I think, I think that there could be a place in this 11 for either a Steady Eddie who made hundreds of appearances just as much as there is someone who burned a little bit brighter and quicker. Is that sort of how you imagined it as well?

Yeah, I think, you know, we've, we've, we've already talked a lot, haven't we, about who our favourite players were during this era. And there are, there's the obvious qualities, you know, being able to score goals, being able to keep them out, but also just like the intangibles of Watfordness, which, you know, hopefully we'll be able to pick out some of that as well. Like just what made them total legends, basically. Yeah, Vicarage Road in the '90s. So I'm sure we'll get into some of that. I'm sure we'll get into some of that. And the other thing is, you know, it being the '90s, it's got to be 4-4-2 as well.

None of this, you know, 3 at the back nonsense. None of this— no 4-3-3, no inverted wingers. You know, it's, it's 4-4-2 all the way because that—.

Okay, let me just— I'm just scrubbing out of my notes here though, the trequartista and the regista, they're gone now.

They're gone. No, absolutely not.

I mean, Keith Dublin libero is no longer in the team.

Well, there was a period of prime Roeder-ball where I think we were playing with a sort of a diamond in midfield for a while. Yeah, so you know I will, I will consider some variation on the 4-4-2, but ultimately that it's, it's, it's got to be. That's got to be the core components of it, I think. Yeah, I think, I think, and I think, and I'm brushing over, yeah, I'm brushing over Graham Taylor's experiment with Tommy Mooney as in a back three as well. But yeah, but again, I think we'll. We'll try to keep it simple. We'll try to keep it smart.

I'm slightly daunted by your revelation that you've been compiling a database of, you know, statistics and God knows what else.

I'm trying to out-Hessenthaler Hessenthaler. Yes. So let's say—.

He just referred to your documents that you needed to bring up for this.

My files. Yeah.

Your files. Well, I've got a scribbled—.

I've got to just navigate through the folder structure. Yeah.

Yeah, I've got a scribbled note. I did on the train home. So we'll see, we'll see, we'll see.

I think you— yeah, I think you might have the wrong impression about my quote-unquote notes, but okay. So what we'll do is we'll go through this side in position order. Let's see if we have the same opinion or if we need to have an uneasy negotiation or whatever. But should we start things off with goalkeepers? I think start with the keepers. I think with respect to the likes of Steve Cherry or Keith Waugh or whoever, there really are only 2, maybe 3 contenders here, do you think?

I had, I had 3 contenders of— David James, Kevin Miller, and Alec Chamberlain were the three that I'd say were, you know, worthy of consideration as getting the Golden Gloves for the '90s.

Yes.

No disrespect to Perry Digweed but he didn't quite make the cut. No, he didn't quite make the cut. I think— I actually think Perry Digweed may have shortened my life expectancy, to be honest.

But yeah, this is a Perry-free team, isn't it?

It's a Perry-free team. So let's actually take those. Should we take that? Did you have anyone else? Was that your three? Did you have anyone else?

That was my three as well.

Yeah, I think so. For me those, those three— David James, phenomenal goalkeeper, a bit of a one-of-a-kind for the decades, you know, a youth team product who burst onto the scene in one of the worst Watford teams that I've ever watched and somehow managed to avoid being relegated despite being managed by Colin Lee and having the likes of Barry Ashby and Keith Dublin playing in front of him. But so I think he's a, he's a, he's a very strong contender for me. What are your thoughts on Kevin Miller?

I think Miller is a strong contender. Couple of Player of the Season awards, I think pretty much universally was great. A goalkeeper when they're out of form is a, is a big problem for a side. And with lots of other things going wrong in that Watford team, while he was, he was a part of it, he was very reliable, very dependable, certainly one of the best, if not the best keeper in that division. I was always amazed he never really kind of kicked on and took his game to another level. But and in fact, some of his best parts of his career probably were at Watford, I think. I think that's true.

I think he's a major contender for this, for the shirt, for the Golden Gloves, as you describe them. We've got Chamberlain. And I think Chamberlain is—. Chamberlain. Yeah, Chamberlain.

Yeah, Chamberlain. Well, there's another one who did the best, you know, some of their best work of their entire career at Watford. And probably another one who was very surprising in that regard because he came, was really signed as a reserve goalkeeper, wasn't he, for not very much money. And ended up taking the, taking the gloves and then keeping them for the most successful period that Watford had in the '90s, one of the most successful periods in their history when they got back-to-back promotions. And he was, again, incredibly reliable, never seemed to have a really bad game, and was part of that just remarkable team spirit that, you know, kind of epitomised it in a sense of sort of underdogs coming good and defying the odds and taking on anyone. There's actually— this is probably— this is a tough one, I think, the keepers.

Should we, should we put our cards on the table in terms of.

Yeah, I think that period of time where Miller kept 600 clean sheets in a row I think that period of form, that season of his, is enough to elevate him to my first choice.

Well, see, I had, I had David James because, because he was, he broke the mould for goalkeepers in that time, and because he was a rookie and he had two excellent seasons in goal that earned him, you know, a move to Liverpool for big money. And then he went on to— he did go on to have an excellent top-flight career and was at one point England goalkeeper as well. Yeah. But we're talking about what they did at Watford and. Although Miller had the sort of better defensive record, I'd say, in terms of clean sheets, I think David James was— he was— had a remarkable presence in the goal. And it's tough. It's a tough one because you could make the case for any one of those three.

It's interesting you say that because I perhaps this is— despite my— the facts and figures that have fallen out of my head and spreadsheet and all the rest of it perhaps I haven't given this enough thought because I kind of really saw this as a shootout between Miller and Chamberlain. And so to see James's car here, you sort of, you know, you know, go to bat for James is it's an interesting one. It's making me, making me think about it a little bit deeper. I thought, I thought that Chamberlain is strongly associated with that great bit of success in the late '90s, and I think Miller is associated with the Petchey, the better performances in some of the Petchey years. Yeah, James almost feels— and this is probably just my opinion on the decade rather than Watford or David James— James, because of his spell as Watford's number one was right at the beginning of the decade, in a sort of Paul Wilkinson sense, kind of feels like, you know, it was all pre-Sky. It kind of feels almost of a different vintage. No, I know what you mean, which is, which is a stupid thing to say when you really think about it, but I think that's probably just where my— where I pigeonhole him in my brain.

So I. I think if we, if we were to dig in into this even more, then we'd probably run out of time. If we were to do this for every position, I can, I can see your desire to put James in, and I wouldn't have any arguments against it. Miller, Miller was just the obvious first choice for me the one that jumped out at me.

We can have our preferred 11s and we can see where there's some overlap at the end and see if we want to fight it out at the end for any of them. The other thing, my closing remark on Zak James would be that he was incredibly— he was, you know, that makes him sound like he's dead. He's still very much alive despite his battles with Sensible Soccer addiction on his Commodore Amiga, which is another great '90s reference. He's also very handsome, which I think was unusual for '90s goalkeepers as well. So, you know, he was, you know, that's—.

Yeah, I don't know. No, I don't think any— I don't think Miller would be cast in a leading role in a 1940s Hollywood spectacle, but he wasn't without his admirers, I'm sure.

Fair point. You've got— you're really— you're, you're not letting me push Miller out of the equation.

No, I'm letting you have James and I'm letting myself have Miller. And maybe our desire to negotiate an uneasy truce has failed at the goalkeeper position number 1.

And I think we're just saying, Chambo, total ledge.

Yeah, but you know, anyone we talk about today is, you know, firmly stamped with the legend stamp.

Stamp, aren't they? Yeah, I would hope so. I would hope so. Not— yeah, well, depends if you're going to start talking about Keith Dublin, but there we are.

190 appearances in the '90s, Keith Dublin.

Oh God. Right, how are we— are we doing left to right across the back four?

I think you've got to go— oh no one goes left to right across the back. Number 2 is the right back. Let's go, let's go right to left across, right to left across the defence, then the midfield. Nearly committed a huge faux pas. Oh God, how can I make this seem cool now?

Okay, tell me who you've— tell me who your shortlist for right back is. So Gibbs, Bazeley. Yep, that is it, isn't it? That's it. I was pondering whether Gerard Lavin gets a— for scoring, for scoring an absolute thunder bastard to open the Vicarage Road stand, whether he gets a shout. But and that goal at Peterborough, to be fair. But no, he wasn't.

You couldn't have Gerard Lavin in a team of the '90s. I was just trying to broaden the pool a bit more, but it was slim pickings, I think it's fair to say. It's a very noble endeavor, but you know, Gibbs and Bazeley— It's a noble endeavor, but shut up.

Yeah, but please don't do that again. Gibbs and Bazeley both spent the majority of the '90s in the team. Bazeley could play as a winger. Gibbs could play as a right-sided centre back. So there were times that they were in the same team. Yeah, Gibbsy, the most defensive-minded of the two, and obviously Bazeley could get forward and whip in across from deep or even from the byline. I think this is a pretty 50-50 one for me, although I, yeah, I do have an opinion.

I'm putting Gibbs in at right back. I think he's Sir Nigel Gibbs, isn't he? He's, of the people that we're, you know, bestowing legend status upon today, I think he ought to be a, towards the front of the queue. He's firmly associated with Watford, and for all of the many good reasons. And he played over 250 times in the '90s, despite missing, what, probably more than 2 seasons worth through injury.

Yeah, he basically— he missed 2 seasons and then came back and was back in for the sort of push at the start, you know, when we won the second— second division title. He was back into the team, but that was after missing virtually all of the previous 2 seasons. It's weird though because I don't have— I had— I was really torn on this one. It's because I don't really have vivid memories of Gibbs even though he played loads of football. And I think that maybe that's just more because of the type of player he was, that he was just there. And yeah, whereas I actually— I think I remember Bazeley only really had one really solid season at right back, but it was an amazing one because we got promoted to the Premier League and he actually kept Gibbs out of the team that season at right back. But that was like the first time Bazeley had put together a solid season probably in his Watford career, and it was an excellent season.

And then he left. So I feel like for that reason, although there was, there was lots of Bazeley moments in the '90s, he only really had one solid season, which was that '98-'99 one. So I'm gonna agree, I think he'd probably go with Gibbs. Yeah, I think you go with Gibbs. Where to next? It's the first centre-back. We're going across.

Let's do the centre-backs. Should we deal with them as a pair? Let's deal with them as a pair because I think this is probably one of the more meatier challenges because I could, I could sort of 6 or 7 options probably, I think, really some good ones. Should I give you some names?

Give me some names.

Let me know what you think of them. David Holdsworth, definitely. Colin Foster.

Legend.

Keith Millen. Steady. Robert Page.

Leader.

Steve Palmer.

Mr. Dependable. Glenn Roeder. Oh, I loved Roeder. Loved Roeder.

Keith Dublin. I'm sorry, that will be the last time I've mentioned this. I think those— I think you could make a case of any pair of those.

Yeah, I had all of those on my list. Anymore? No, I think that I'm— I don't think— I don't think Mark Watson gets onto the list.

I don't think he does, no.

I don't think Barry Ashby does either. I think— I think those are your— those are the ones who played the most and we saw the most of during that decade, I think. So for me, one that has to— that I feel it's just, it's really hard this one because there's, there's players that I like. I really like a lot of these players. Yeah, it's just sort of, it was sort of personally because they were, you know, the centre-backs were the sort of, you know, very much the sort of leaders of the team and the no-nonsense guys who sorted everyone out. At least these guys tried to anyway. I think Colin Foster had such an impact when he came into the team, and I just have such fond memories of him doing these ridiculous, ridiculous interceptions, like tackles where it looked like someone was going past him and he'd stick out this long leg and just hook the ball away from him and just soaking up everything that was hit towards him in the air.

Always felt a lot more safer and secure when Foster was at the back. I know he had. He had almost minus pace.

But yeah, Football Manager or FIFA or whatever. Yeah, it's minus 10.

Yeah. In today's game might be a bit of a barrier, but this is a '90s team and he— it was still quite a physical game and he didn't seem to— it didn't seem to cause him too many problems despite that. How do you feel about Foster? Because I kind of— I feel I tried to argue around it, but I can't get around Foster. I just feel like he has to be in.

Like a lot of— like a lot of strikers back in the day. Yeah, I haven't selected him, and the reason that— for that is the internet tells me he played 78 times, and I reckon for half of those he was absolutely imperious. Couldn't get past him. Head like a magnet, you know. Cool, calm, composed. Scored a good volley at one point, if I remember correctly. Marshalled a good defence, transformed a defence, let alone sort of, you know, improved it.

Like, it was not a defence and then it was. However, I feel like the last 30 or so appearances— if I'm making that number up, it might be completely incorrect— he was not great. When once his pace went from -10 to -15, as it did when he was on our books, I think he became not a liability, that would be very unfair. Even when he was having his worst form for us, he was still a, he's still a solid player. But I think there are others, but essentially he's not one of the two that I've chosen. But, you know, absolute legend. The— he's a moments man for me, and that transformation in that— what was it, '93 or '94?

Was extraordinary. And I was exactly the right age to sort of fully inhale all of that stuff and just, you know, hook it to my veins and all that business. He was, he was brilliant. I instead— I mean, this is, this is interesting because we're picking two, so you may have this person in as well. I've picked Robert Page. I think that he came into the team, he was a captain, he was born a captain, wasn't he?

He was probably commanding his family around before he could speak. And, you know, as we speak now, the World Cup is coming towards an end, and obviously Wales didn't have a good time in that World Cup, but he's brought that kind of charisma, I guess, in a sort of quiet charisma, leadership, he feels no nonsense, but not in a kind of old-fashioned, proper football man sort of way. I think he commands respect, and it's been great to see him do so well with Wales over the last couple of years. And when he was in our team, kind of watching him emerge, as we did in the '90s, from a talented rookie into, you know, he was properly Watford's captain by the age of sort of 22, wasn't he? Like, not just having the armband, but properly inhabiting the role. I think it's difficult for me to look past look past Page as one of my selections.

Agreed, agreed. So yes, I was gonna— essentially I had Foster and Page as my unbelievably slow centre-back pairing who you would not want to put up against we would play quite deep, we'd have to play quite deep, we'd have to play quite deep, but we wouldn't, we wouldn't struggle for sort of presence, I think, in that.

I fancy, fancy they'd both be amongst the goals as well, wouldn't they?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Set pieces. You know, you're probably adding another 8 or 9 goals to the tally just in set pieces from those two clearing everyone out at corners. Yeah, I bet I can— I'm— no, I'm not going to second guess who you've got as your second CB. You can tell me.

It was, it was a, it was a toss-up between Millen and Palmer. I've gone for Millen, and as I say those words out loud, I'm wondering if I've— I wonder if I've made the right choice or not. But I think I'd probably pick Millen for similar reasons that you picked Foster. Well, so I suppose they were my reasons, weren't they, that you picked Foster? Because I was talking about how he kind of transformed that defence, and Millen was very much part of that as well. It was— I played, played a lot more games, was around for a lot longer than Foster was, you know, played for a good 2 or 3 seasons more, didn't he? I just really, really liked Keith Millen.

I thought he was— I used to kind of think of him in terms of a 5 and a 6, you know, like a dominant stopper of a centre-half and someone that would cover a little bit more. I'm not really sure how my pairing kind of goes in that way, but I feel like Millen and Page are an intelligent pairing that would marshal that defence. And I'm happy with my picks as well. I went to university in Bath. I went there in the late night, wait, in 1999. After Millen left Watford, he went to, Bristol City, either as a player or a coach. And I bumped into him in the Litten Tree, a pub at the top of Bath, of Milsom Street in Bath.

Lovely, it was a lovely pub. It's probably a Revolution now, I'm sure. But it was good to bump into him at the bar and exchange pleasantries and tell him how much I enjoyed his time as a Watford player. So I think probably from that very boring anecdote alone, he deserves a place in my team.

Really loved the way you leant into forwards with your elbow and just moved him out of the way and headed it clear, Keith. I love the way you did that.

Exactly. Oh, you're doing it at the bar right now, aren't you? Yeah, excellent stuff. Yeah, get the attention of that barmaid. God, leave him out of the way.

Right, okay, so slight discrepancy. We're both a page is in pages, you know, just epitomising the proud Welshman vibe at centre-back. Yeah. And then we've, we've got either side of the, the '94-'95 centre-back pairing in Foster and Millen alongside him. So who's—.

Who— this is the point where I'd love to be playing— I'd love to be playing 5-3-2 here, you know. I'd love to be playing like 3 at the back because you could get 3 of them in and you wouldn't have to compromise quite as much. Never mind, let's move on.

I'm not sure I would pick them as a back 3, I have to say. I think that's where your man Keith Dublin would be making an appearance, but if we're talking back threes, but we're not, so he's, so he's not. Sorry, Keith. Right, left back. I feel like this is probably going to be the shortest one that we'll do, the left back position. I'll be very surprised if we need to have much of a debate about this.

Robert, that's interesting. I think I think we've got in a fairly distant third place, we've got Jason Drysdale, and then battling out for the number 3 shirt, Kennedy and Robinson.

I see. Interesting, because I think— what do you just think is Robinson? Well, I think it depends on where you think Kennedy did his best work in a Watford shirt, because you could have Kennedy at left back or you could have him at left midfield.

And well, this I did— I didn't mention it at the time, but you could have the same thing about Darren Bazeley.

You could. Well, I've got him— spoiler alert— I had him a right back and on right midfield. So you've got him—.

Two of your 11 are Darren Bazeley in my—.

In the long list. I see.

Yeah, me too. Yeah.

So I had Kennedy on the long list for left back.

Well, I've got Steve Palmer in the long list in every position, so, you know, this is just how it works.

That is how it works. That is how it works. We didn't talk about Palmer at centre-back, but I feel like we talked about Steve Palmer a lot in the episodes that we did. And whilst I loved him, I don't think he was, as a centre-back, wasn't in the same class as those other ones. So I think that's— I think it's fine that we glossed over that on this particular episode. But yes, left backs, I don't think there's much of a debate for me because as Kennedy was a fantastic— we'll talk about Kennedy, I think we can talk about him now, but as left back, I think Robinson was like what is one of the legendary Watford left backs of all time.

And yeah, I just don't think there's much of a debate about if you just had to pick one from this decade. The fact that he burst on to the scene as a youth team player in the mid-'90s and then nailed down that spot you know, and made hundreds of appearances, broke legs, scored the odd scrappy goal, you know, cheerleader on people's shoulders, getting the, getting the crowd going, you know, leading the celebrations, took no prisoners, did some really daft things but was the most committed player that, you know, you could possibly hope to see in a Watford shirt and was a decent, you know, again, another player actually had a career afterwards, played at the, played in the top flight, played a lot of games for West Brom and Birmingham afterwards.

Played for ages, didn't he? Played for ages, played to 40, didn't he? Probably.

Yeah. For me, for me, it's Robbo. I don't know if you disagree.

I flirted with Ken. Flirted with all these men but I cannot look past— like, yeah, I cannot disagree with a single word you said.

I'm glad, because I was— that was— that's where it's going to start to get awkward, I think, if you disagree.

Yeah. No, Robbo gets 3, right?

That was straightforward. Let's move on to midfield. So are we going, are we going right to left again? Is that your preferred structure? Let's do that, right?

Let's follow, follow the pattern. Who's wearing the, what I imagine is the number 7 shirt? Well, who's wearing that?

So I had I had 3 players on this. So I have Bazeley, as I've already mentioned, as right midfield. Nick Wright whether or not he was right midfield or he sometimes was a forward, but I've put him as right midfield because I feel like he did most of his best work hugging the touchline and yeah, just charging about. Not hugging the touchline, but charging about on the right-hand side of the pitch.

I kind of feel like in a— I know that we don't, we don't want to talk too much about formations. He's tailor-made for a kind of the— in a modern 4-3-3, the right-hand side attacker. He would in our 4-4-2, which we're talking about, and indeed he played in. Yeah, it's an imperfect role, isn't it? Either right midfield or striker.

Well, and the other thing about this was, looking back on this, it's like there was a lot of period where we didn't play with any wingers at all. We just seemed to play with 4 blokes who like to stand around in the middle and— yeah, exactly— and kick people, but didn't really run very much with the ball. Like, there weren't many natural flair players, I think it's, it's fair to say. So I had not on the wings, so I had Bazeley, Wright and I also had Bruce Dyer. Even though he only played a handful of games but that was a short and sweet and explosive half a season on the right wing. Probably one of the most, you know, exciting periods of that part of the decade when, let's be honest, it was pretty bleak and unrewarding stuff a lot of the time. So the teenage Bruce Dyer flying up and down the right wing and scoring in that game against Palace.

Yeah, scoring lots of goals. You know, actually, actually genuinely scoring quite a few goals and setting up a lot for Furlong as well. That was that sort of 3 or 4 months when he was connecting with Furlong a lot, and they looked like the best sort of attacking threat that we'd had in ages. So that's my— yeah, that's my 3.

Any builds on that? I think I think what I said about Wright applies to Dyer as well. I think they occupy a squad kind of similar position or space, whereas Bazeley is probably the most tailor-made as a right winger or a wide right midfielder. He takes my pick. I love Nicky Wright. He'll always be one of my favourite Watford players, not just because of his goal at Wembley, but because what he sort of personified and what he brought to that team.

And his, you know, there are there is an element of every football club's fan base where, you know, if you try, that's probably good enough. And like, you know, trying is somehow made to be this incredible characteristic which is more important than skill. And I don't necessarily subscribe to that. It was great to see a player like Nicky Wright who was able to combine being a good footballer with trying very bloody hard in every game. And like, to the point where in the 60th minute of every match he was having to be taken off because he couldn't, couldn't run anymore. So I love Nicky Wright, but he doesn't get the place in my team. I plump in for Bazeley.

Fair enough. I had— I'm denied about this one, and I'm going to controversially select the young Bruce Dyer.

Oh, excellent! I like, I like that, I like that, because.

Just because of a few times where I saw him absolutely skin full backs alive. And yeah, the sight of— the sight of one of your own doing that was an extremely exciting period.

Yeah, like, we weren't— we weren't renowned for being that sort of team at the time, were we? There wasn't a lot of excitement in that— in that time. We tended to be ponderous and one-paced with some skill, you know. Furlong was around at the time and he was— he was brilliant. We'll talk about him, I'm sure. But yeah, Bruce Dyer gave us something to be really excited about. So yeah, even though he didn't play that much— yeah, exactly, he didn't play— he probably played it as, you know, a tenth of the games that, I don't know, David Holdsworth played or something throughout the decade.

But that's fine, that's fine.

There was no appearance criteria assigned to this before we started, so, you know, absolutely. He's got to have played this amount of games.

Oh yeah, no, I quite agree. I think I will refer you to my earlier remark that, you know, you can— this is, this is some sort of—.

This is strictly vibes. Yeah, this is strictly vibes.

You know, you can get into this team by playing well for a long time or by playing brilliantly for a short period of time.

Yeah.

And Bruce Dyer fits the latter category.

Bruce Dyer's the latter, right.

Centrocampista, then another thorny issue.

Yeah, so it's another thorny issue.

Yeah, I can think of 6.

6.

It's like that game show where you have— yeah, this is that game show we have to go do you choose 7 or do I have to name them?

You have to name them. Okay, all right, okay. Can you give me—.

I liked what you did with the centre-back, so can you give me a one-word remark on each of them. I'll try. This is pure vibes. You don't have to think about it. Pure vibes. Richard Johnson.

I haven't got a one-word answer for Richard Johnson. Shoot! Yeah, shoot, exactly. Sorry, why was that not the first thing that came to mind?

Micah Hyde.

Now I think because you've put me on the spot here, I'm struggling with the words.

Okay, I'll just rattle through them instead. Yeah, that's probably better.

I think that's probably—.

Yeah, let's do that. Richie Johnson, Micah Hyde, Craig Ramage, Andy Hessenthaler, Gary Porter, Steve Palmer. Well, you've got Palmer in there. Well, he was in my centre-back list as well. I've just included him in centre midfield. We signed him as a centre midfielder, didn't we? And he ended up doing a lot of good work at centre half, but played enough games in centre midfield, I think, interesting to warrant inclusion.

See, because the other one in there that I wasn't sure about where to put him was Gary Porter, because he, although I think of him as being central, he often was sort of. He seems to be appearing left midfield quite a lot.

He's in my left midfield list as well. I mean, and let's not forget that awful run against where he played left back and was absolutely terrible.

I remember him appearing in left midfield a lot, even though I never saw him like go past anyone in his entire career.

And I think you've, you kind of already alluded to this, you know, he was a kind of a shuttler and he tucked in a lot. So even if he was normally playing you know, number 11 left midfield. He would always tuck in. He was, he wasn't, he was never going to beat his man on the outside and get to the byline, was he?

No. All right, well, let's get to the, let's get to the meat in the sandwich. We're talking Richard Johnson, absolute legend. Lethally, like an actual lethal shot. Lethal as in it would potentially actually put you in hospital, it would potentially kill you if you took one in the face. His midfield partner in crime, Micah Hyde, who, you know, lovely, lovely runs forward from midfield, eye for goal, great sort of timing of runs into the box, and a very sort of languid, effortless style on the ball. Hessenthaler, one of the most incredible engines I think that you will see in a, in a central midfielder.

Just went up and down for 90 minutes and also scored some really important goals for Watford as well.

He did, he did that breaking through from midfield thing, didn't he?

Yeah, he was quite a tight— a tidy footballer, Hessenthaler, and made everything tick, didn't he? If he was— if he was on it, then he could sort of bring the rest of the team with him a little bit as well. A real leader. And. Ramage. Ramage. I think we talked about Ramage a lot.

There was— for all the problems, for all the coming back from holiday 2 stone overweight and refusing to, refusing to train properly, and generally being an all-round flash bastard, he could do some wonderful things on the football pitch.

He kind of—. And that is what you go to see, isn't it? Unfortunately, he also sort of represents the '90s. He does. Watford in a way that some of these other players don't. But he does more than some others, I should say.

But yeah, in a sort of like, he's, you know, a bit, a bit, there's a hint of faded glory of what might have been in Ramage. You know, there's something there, something to cling onto, but it makes appearances all too frequently. But there's still that sort of, that hint of magic there. And when it does come together, it's, you know, it's worth, it actually is worth it. It sends you home happy. Oh, it's tough, it's tough. This tough one.

I'll tell you my first, no, so the one, first one for me that has to be in there that I didn't really, I'm an argh about, that I put my asterisk next to straight away was Richard Johnson. Because he played, for, you know, over half of the decade. And there was a real— you could actually see the improvement in his game as the decade progressed as well, and the evolution of him.

Got better every season, didn't he?

He got better every season. And by the end of the decade, he was, you know, one of the best midfielders that the club had produced, I think. One of the most reliable players, but actually like a player of some real, like, genuine quality. Who's— yeah, who's overall— like, I think that where he ended up, as like, as far as he got in the game, was cut short by injury, as we talked about. I think he would have reached higher levels still if he hadn't had that really horrific injury. I think he would have played more games in the top flight for another club. But regardless of all of that, phenomenal player.

And has to be in our team of the '90s for me. Would you agree? Yeah, 100%. Okay, second pick. You can go first.

Yeah, I essentially this essentially was choosing between Hyde and Hessenthaler, and I think you could make a case for either. I think Hessenthaler's rise from non-league— I mean, it's just a story other than Vardy. I mean, when does this ever happen? Yeah, plucked from non-league obscurity and became a central figure in that team of that time. I don't really care about the manner of his departure. I think we probably discussed this in one of our— like, I'm absolutely— I'm so unbothered, I just do not care. And find the people who do get bothered about that sort of stuff, I find them very strange.

Sorry to all of our listeners who I've just offended. So I think it's either Johnson and Hessenthaler. So we are talking about vibes here. Johnson and Hessenthaler feels a little bit too defensive. And also Johnson and Hyde, you've got that Johnson holds, Hyde breaks through, and they are just so associated with each other anyway. They seem to be great mates, they were brilliant on the pitch together.

So for me it's quite predictably probably Johnson and Hyde.

I had the same. But then I also was pondering whether peak Jono with peak Ramage— oh, what would that have been like?

I thought experiment that is.

Yeah, like, what a thought experiment. Yeah, what a thought experiment. Would that have worked? I don't know.

I'd love to have seen it, seen it happen. I mean, obviously they would have played lots of games together. Yeah, their team in the— their time in the team, they did, they did play together in '94-'95.

Yeah, they did play together, but I think, like, I'm thinking like Johnson in sort of like '97, '98. Oh yeah, '99. Yeah, where he was actually a more— he was a more experienced player and having a lot more influence on games.

Yeah, I would have liked to have seen peak Jono, peak Ramage, but yeah, because we didn't, I'm going with Hyde.

But yes, absolutely, it probably wouldn't have worked because by that point. The reason I think, I think, I think it has to be Hyde because the reason they were so effective was because they dovetailed so nicely, didn't they, as a pair, and they complemented each other so well. And without Hyde, if it was peak Johnson and peak Ramage, peak Ramage was still a lazy bastard who was just wander around the pitch like waving his arms at people if he didn't get the ball enough. And that probably was not gonna— that's not gonna work, was it? Wasn't gonna work.

So it wasn't gonna work.

Yeah, agreed. All right. We've actually agreed on something there, so that's good. On to the left and again, same problems as, you know, in defining people to play on this side as I had with right midfield, in a sense. So there weren't many— there were very few wingers that we had in this time. So I had but the people who popped up there most during the '90s who, you know, didn't disgrace themselves which is— that's a very negative way of looking at it— but Gary Porter, Peter Kennedy, who we've already mentioned. I also had— and this is another brief, brief, brief but bright well, maybe not brief but bright, but brief— Stuart Slater.

I had — I wondered if you'd say him.

Yeah, I had him as well. Oh, I think he only scored one goal. It was an absolute beauty.

I think it won't go, wasn't it?

Vincey got very carried away on the comms for that one.

Vincey absolutely loves Slater, didn't he?

He effing loves him. Absolutely. Like, I think, I think Vince would have Slater in his team. I remember seeing him a couple of times where he just had fullback absolutely on toast and was playing players ragged. But it's one of those ones where if he was playing at the level that he was— he'd shown he was capable of earlier this career, then he wouldn't have been at Watford. The reason he sort of ended up at Watford is because he's had quite a few injuries, I think. And yeah, you know, he just wasn't able to sustain his form for long enough.

And Taylor gave him quite a lot of chances, and I think he just wasn't able to either stay fit or keep his form at the required level. Showed, showed signs of brilliance still, but for that reason, yeah, he can't— I can't, I can't pick him as much as I wanted to because I wanted to, because I wanted to have— and I wanted to have another winger who would go past players. Yeah, you want a bit of balance, don't you? Want a bit of balance. But Gary Porter, you've already discussed. I think it's weird that I'm struggling to find a place for Porter. Because he was in many ways Mr. '90s in terms of the amount of football he played.

He kind of was, yeah, I agree. I mean, his, his Watford career kind of, kind of ended with something of a whimper. Yeah. Broke his leg, didn't he? And then didn't play again when his contract was up. But he was responsible for one of the defining moments of the— Yeah.

Or matches, I suppose, of the '90s. Part of a match, if you even will do that. So yeah, I love Gary Porter, and I had him in my team when I first wrote it down, but then I changed it to Kennedy.

Agreed.

I would, you know, if we had a long list of subs, Porter would definitely be one of them. But I thought Kennedy,. Is we're not picking players based on their versatility, but I love the way that he could play left back, he could play left wing back, he could play as a left winger. And for a period of time, he was the most dangerous player on in our team and was scoring all the time and scoring some really good goals. And again, you know, we— I think it was Pete kind of, kind of mentioned, you know, we picked him up picked him up from Notts County, hadn't we? And he mentioned a discussion with Graham Taylor about that. And but, and I bring that up because I think he kind of came from nowhere, essentially.

I can't think that many Watford fans would have known who he was, even in that period, you know, even in that period back then. We signed lots of players who we wouldn't have known who they were because we don't have the same level of access to information as we do now. But even that was a Who, like, you know, he couldn't get in the Notts County team and we're signing him and immediately became a fixture in the side and was responsible for lots of great moments. And he scored 2 against Luton in that famous 4-0 win, which like anyone who saw that or was, well, you know, was around at the time can't possibly forget. Yeah, Kennedy gets it for me.

Yeah, and I think he was actually like— he was, even though he wasn't a, it wasn't a left winger who would necessarily sort of turn fullbacks inside out, he would, he would get it wide, he would put decent crosses in. And he did get— it was very— it could be very, like you said, he was very naturally attacking. He would have good attacking instincts, scored some great goals, got some really important goals. Absolutely deserves his place in this team and also epitomises that '90s aspect of Watford of just finding someone who had been kind of overlooked, and somehow through the sheer— again, the sheer power of Taylor's vibes— was able to turn him— turn this sort of— not this player who'd been discarded by Notts County into one of the best wide men in the division overnight. No one knows how he did it. Strange alchemy of GT.

But yeah, one of those magic potions.

When he went shopping in the lower reaches of the Football League, that's when it was like, other managers beware, because he's gonna find—.

He's gonna polish this one. He's gonna be good.

It's gonna be good. Something's gonna happen. It's gonna sprinkle that dust on it. So just don't give him big money to spend, that's all. Just keep him on the Notts Counties of this world and exactly, all will be fine. All will be fine.

Right, well, that gives us a functioning midfield. So 2 to go, 2 strikers. I've got a list of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Any advance on 9? Of course you don't know who they are.

4, 5, 6, 7, 8 I have.

Oh, this would be an interesting one then. Who are your 8?

My 8 are Wilkinson and Penrice.

Yeah.

Paul Furlong, Kevin Phillips, Tommy Mooney, David Connolly, Gifton Noel-Williams, and Michel Ngonge would be quite— interesting.

Yeah, that is a long list. Yeah, my long list is I think for obvious reasons there's a name here that we've already mentioned Paul Furlong, Bruce Dyer, Tommy Mooney, Paul Wilkinson, Kevin Phillips, Gifton Noel-Williams, Gary Penrice, Alan Smart, David Connolly.

Smart. I missed out Smart. Yeah, no, he deserves, deserves a place on the long list at least.

He deserves consideration.

Consideration. So this could take a while.

Let's, let's clear the next hour. Let's clear—.

This is—. We're not going to have any meetings coming up. We might have to break this into two parts now. I'll start with the ones who I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna take forward into the final round.

They're not gonna— okay, I like this. Yes, yeah.

So honourable mentions for, I think for me, for Michel Ngonge. Yeah. Who I absolutely loved but was, you know, we discussed, we discussed his blessings and his limitations.

Brilliantly limited, wasn't it?

Brilliantly limited. And Alan Smart, who could look like one of the most gifted centre-forwards in the league on his day, but that day was not often enough for me. And Bruce Dyer, I think I. I'm— well, you can't have him twice. I can't have him twice. I've already got him on right midfield. So unless he's on your you know, real shortlist no, grabbing him.

And David Connolly, because there's just no— no, however, however good we may have thought he was at the time, there's absolutely no way I can accept him in the team of the '90s. That would just be— that would, that would be blasphemy, I think. Yeah, so let's get rid of all of them. Okay, that leaves us with Penrice, Wilkinson, Phillips, Furlong, Mooney, and Gifton, I believe. Just about 6 people left. Who would you— who would you scrub first from that list?

Penrice. Yeah, love him. Penno, brilliant. His dovetailing with Paul Wilkinson was a rare highlight of the early '90s when we were going through the likes of the Lee years, the pair of them, years, whatever it was. And enjoyed his sort of cameo coming back as a, as a centre, central midfielder, which was weird but nice to have him back. I think he was, he was great but he— I'm not taking him through.

Yeah. Agreed. So that leaves Wilkinson, Furlong, Phillips, Mooney, and Gifton. And now we're getting into— now we're talking.

Now it's kind of like, which of your family members do you like the least? Isn't it? Yeah, it's that sort of level of conversation.

It is that level of conversation. It is that level of conversation.

And we could extol the virtues of all of these. Maybe we ought to, rather than— rather than making them walk the plank. You love Paul Furlong, don't you? Would you, would you like to say anything more about Paul Furlong that you haven't already said in previous episodes?

Well, apart from him being the most complete centre forward that England produced in the 1990s, then yeah, I think I don't really need to say much more than that about Paul Furlong. I think he had, he had it all, Matt. He had it all. He did.

He had it all and then some, didn't he?

And then some. So I, as far as I can— I don't think I do have anything more to say about Paul Furlong. I think if I start, then I'll just— it'll be another 5 minutes rambling, and no one needs to hear that again.

Yeah, we could see this, we could say this about everybody. I mean, Tommy Mooney, I mean, he was, he was a centre-back, he was a right midfielder, he was a striker, he was, he was everything, and did some really great work in that promotion season, didn't he? He was amazing. And to have him from, what, '93 through to, you know, into the beginning of the next decade. And for him to play such an important role, fantastic. I loved it to bits.

And gradually became more— it's like the end of the decade where it became more of an out-and-out centre forward and became more prolific as a centre forward as well.

He found his— he kind of filled out, found his position, and took to it.

Yeah. More of a clever player than I think, given credit for Mooney. And I think, you know, could play in— yeah, it was very adaptable, couldn't he? He could play in lots of different teams and play with different players as well. Paul Wilkinson was another one that we both loved. Yeah, it was a phenomenal centre forward for Watford's you know, real proper, proper striker. Get on the end of things.

Yeah, Target Man. Yeah, Target Man, but Target Man makes it sound like he was.

It wasn't one-dimensional.

No, I mean, it wasn't an immobile lump. Like, he would, he would get about and he would make a real nuisance of himself.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you could play the ball up to him and it'd stick. And yeah, but he was not— he wasn't without skill and excellent finisher, you know.

Excellent finisher.

He probably had to feed off his own scraps in that team for the most part, other than when Penrice was around.

So yeah, wonderful. Gifton, one of the most exciting products of the youth team, like, ever, I think. I don't— that might sound ridiculous, but I actually think it was because of the age that he came into the team and started playing regularly up front as a teenager, as a proper teenager. And being able to impose yourself on like battle-hardened centre-backs in the Football League and start to bully them when you're 18 years old, making a mockery of them and, you know, embarrassing them, but doing it with such a sort of fun attitude, fun way of playing, and just enjoyment for the game. Being just really bloody good as well. Yeah, it looked like he was just on an unbelievable trajectory to the top of the game, Gifton. And we talked about this a lot, like how, you know, tragic it was, the injury that he had.

And it was great that he still had a career after that, but phenomenal, that sort of season, the first half of the season that he played in '98-'99, I think, is— he was just fantastic to watch during that period. Yeah, and he'd been building up to that. He'd be sort of putting it together bit by bit for the last 2 or 3 seasons since coming into the team, and it was all— it was all starting to come together for him then. Yeah. And then Kevin Phillips, who I was— I just, you know, I don't think I've ever seen a player come into the team and just immediately look like so at home in front of goal and just provide that sort of— just provide a goal threat so effortlessly. He didn't seem to really do— he just appeared in the team and all of a sudden it was like, oh, we've got a player who can stick the ball away and seems to keep appearing on the end of— and suddenly you're just like, where— why can't all of our forwards do this?

Like, he just—.

Yeah, exactly. Why are they not all as gifted in poaching as he is?

Yeah, because he didn't seem to have any— He didn't have the sort of strength or pace of some of the other players that we've described. But he's just always there, and he just— the ball would just arrive at him.

And he was even in the air as well, right? Yeah. You know, it's like, he was not a tall man. Yeah, some of his— you know, regularly scoring goals at the far post with his head.

Amazing stuff. And then obviously, you know, the record that he had after leaving Watford speaks for itself. In terms of the amount of goals that he scored. It's just incredible. Yeah, so tough. Tough choices to be made now, but they must be made.

Yeah, they must be made. Yeah, do you want to venture anything? Well, are you willing, willing to I'm willing, I'm willing to put—.

So first name on the sheet for me is Paul Furlong. I would gen— I would, I would, I'd probably pick him, to be fair, I'd probably pick him in my all-time Watford team. That's how much I loved peak Paul Furlong. I just thought he was so good that, yeah that he'd probably be getting in there ahead of, you know, ahead of anyone, to be honest. Like, it's just maybe where my objectivity is completely gone down the pan. But it was an absolute monster on his day in terms of just being able to do it all up front and do it in a really limited team. And I think like it would have been great if we'd had a player like him at the end of the decade when that Taylor had put that team together.

If we'd had a centre forward like that or if Roeder had one, had him in '94-'95, then yeah, you know, the difference that might have made to that team. I think it's unfortunate that we had him at a time when the rest of the team was really quite weak. But for me, two outstanding seasons in poor Watford sides, scoring, you know, 20 goals a season, has to be Paul Furlong for me.

You'll be pleased to know then that I have also selected Paul Furlong.

We're still friends. We're still friends. That's good.

It survives another day.

Good. That's good. My second one is really hard, and I have been. Even whilst we've been having this conversation, I've been, I've been having doubts about who to pick for the second one. Yes, because I think for the 5 that we just mentioned, you can make it— they could all, they could all get in on, in different merits.

I don't think anybody would raise their eyebrows at any of those selections.

I went with, I went with Kevin Phillips. I went with Kevin Phillips because I think he was— even though like his overall contribution was not what I would have wanted it to be in the '90s, it might sound— that might sound ridiculous compared to like a Mooney or a Wilkinson but I just like Phillips as 10 grand from Baldock was just that again sort of epitomised the '90s, Watford, to be able to find a player at Baldock Town who was a cast-off who'd sort of fallen out of professional football, who then—.

There's a player that can, like, realistically, a man in the crowd could buy.

Yeah, you know, you go to the bank and take out a loan and buy it.

Yeah, so I could remortgage my house and buy Kevin Phillips.

Yeah, signing for your pub team. Exactly. And I also just loved— we know he was always like— the problem with Phillips is he never had the right partner to play with, did he? That was a big part of the problem, about 20 different partners, Sydney, in his short time. Yeah, imagine Kevin Phillips and Paul Furlong together.

Yeah, you may be changing my mind here. That would be— I haven't—.

That would be cooking. That would be cooking.

That is a partnership that I can get excited about. Yeah.

But I can tell you had a different strike partner for—.

I went for a double left-footed attack. I went for Furlong and Mooney. Oh, because— and it's more vibes, I think. I think Mooney just—.

I think that would work, you know. I still think that would work.

I think, I think it worked because they weren't exactly the same. No, Furlong was graceful and elegant and strong and fast, technically very good. Mooney was. Some of those things as well, you know, a great deal of those things. But he kind of brought a— I spoke earlier, didn't I, about kind of up and at 'em and attitude and vibes. Mooney's one that brings that to our— to my front line.

I make no apologies about that. I think, yeah, I think the two of them would, would work together. I do like that Furlong and Phillips, but yeah, but I think it's difficult for me to leave out Mooney. Yeah, based on, based on what he did for Watford in the '90s. There is a danger always with this sort of exercise that you end up just picking that '97-'98 team. Yeah, you know, or the team the following season. And yeah, you know, there are plenty of those in our 11s that we've discussed and Furlong's not in it and I'm happy with that.

I'm happy with Furlong up front with Mooney alongside him. I think that's, that spans most of the decade really, doesn't it?

It does span most of the decades. It definitely does. I like that a lot as well. I. I could probably wake up tomorrow and go with something different, but that was where I could—.

Like, tomorrow I might pick Wilkinson and Noel Williams, you know, because why? Because you could really argue against that. I mean, that's also great.

So yeah, I might go with Keith Dublin and David Holdsworth. No, I won't go with that because I've seen them play together and it was—.

Yeah, that wasn't, that wasn't pleasant for anybody.

They said, well, they're All right, so I think we've, we've got quite a lot of overlap there. There's only a couple of areas where our— yeah we've, we've— our paths have diverged a little bit, and that's good because, you know, it's a game of opinions and, yeah it would be boring if we both picked the exact same 11s. Maybe we can post our teams on the internet and we could do that, couldn't we?

Yeah, people could laugh at them.

People could laugh at them and tell us how we've got it terribly, terribly wrong. So why don't we do that and we can ask people to share their 11 as well.

Should we just run through ours just for, just for finality's sake? Yeah, let's do it. So I had Miller in goal, a back four of Nigel Gibbs, Robert Page, Keith Millen, and Paul Robinson. In midfield, Darren Bazeley, Richie Johnson, Micah Hyde, and Peter Kennedy. And up front, I had Paul Furlong and Tommy Mooney. I think that looking at that on paper, both my fullbacks can play centre-back at a push, and both my wide midfielders can play fullback. So I think that's quite neat.

That could eat— like, you could swap that and play 5-3-2 with the same personnel. And do you think that would work? Quite well. So I'm happy with that as a kind of— of course you can always just stick Mooney back in defence if you absolutely needed to. We haven't talked about subs, and that wasn't part of the brief at all, but I think I'd probably have Chamberlain as the keeper. I think it's— you're only allowed 3.

You're only allowed 3 subs.

I was going to say the same thing. Yeah, mid '90s, you have 3 subs including keeper. So it'd be Chamberlain. I need a defensive sub, which would be Steve Palmer. Because he could play anywhere. And you'd need a striker, and I'd want someone quite different to my strikers, so I'd pick— my heart would say Noel Williams, but I think in tactical, tactical terms, I'd have to pick Kevin Phillips.

Yeah. So I've got—.

They would be managed by Colin Lee.

Surely our night shift manager has to be permanent neck pain Steve Perryman.

Of course he does. Yeah, 45-degree Perryman.

Yeah, sponsored by local osteopaths. So I've got David James in goal. Get a same back four as you, Gibbs. Oh no, I haven't got the same back four as you. So David James in goal, Gibbs, Page, Inspector Gadget Foster, and Paul Robinson. And then a midfield of Bruce Dyer, Micah Hyde, Richard Johnson, and Peter Kennedy. And Paul Furlong and Kevin Phillips up front.

I think the added pace on that right wing of Bruce Dyer is going to cause defences trouble there, I think.

Yeah, you've got, you've got a dangerous team there on the team.

He's probably not going to do much tracking back, but you know, he can add— you've got Gibbs behind him. Exactly. Don't worry about that. Gibbs can look after that left flank for me, can't he? Subs yeah, I would I would also have Chambo as— because I think he's just, you know, Mr. Dependable as your sub goalkeeper, isn't he? Could throw him into any scenario and he's going to come on and he'll be ready, steady.

He'll be ready. Steve Palmer has to be a sub because he can basically play everywhere across the back and in midfield. And then I would have. I'd have Mooney as my sub my taxi again, because he's versatile and, you know, you chuck him on with 20 minutes to go, he'll come on, wave, get his fist pumping and get the crowd up. And impact sub. Impact sub, exactly. So that team would, you know, we're probably finished 15th.

15th in the old Endsleigh First Division yeah. Score about 60 goals, concede 59 which there'd be about 3 consecutive nil-nil draws at home played out in front of about 8,000 people.

Rotherham and who else? Yeah, exactly.

And then they'd win 7 of the last 8 and finish in 15th.

And yeah, and everyone would go home happy and everyone would go home happy. You ended the season well.

Yeah, they'd end the season with that. 5.

Buy— we have a combined transfer expenditure of, let's say, 20 grand in the summer for reinforcements.

Oh, I'd love to see that team play. There we go. Excellent. That was a lot of fun. It was. So we will— we're gonna share our teams on Twitter, and you're welcome to call us clueless idiots who don't know what we're talking about and share your own— tweet your own teams with us. And Maybe we will try to file that out into a combined.

Team in the '90s, but probably not because I don't think— I think there's certain areas there where we're, we're not budging.

So no, there's no room for consensus 11s in this. No room for consensus 11s beyond this Zoom call anyway.

No, maybe, maybe Matt can put these into his supercomputer and crunch the data and see whose team would have come out on top in a, in a, in a simulated environment. So thank you for listening. We are going to take a break for Christmas, and we will let you know via the usual social media channels if there's some more content coming your way in the new year. But I hope everyone has a great Christmas, and thank you for listening. Cheers, Matt.

Lovely. Thanks a lot, really enjoyed that. Thanks, everybody.

Oh my word! No wonder the smiles are there.